German Hegemony over Europe after World war 1, Can it build a navy to invade United States

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Noscoper, Jun 12, 2019 at 3:17 PM.

  1. Noscoper Well-Known Member

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    Say the Central powers win world war 1 and German gains Hegemony over Europe

    Could Germany build a navy capable of crossing the Atlantic and invading the United States

    How long would such a project take
     
  2. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

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    What are they going to do about the Royal Navy? Even if ze Chermans somehow take over Britain, presumably there would be a Government-in-Exile in Canada that would want to carry on the fight, and use Canada's vast resources to make more ships of their own. Even taking into consideration that you don't have the yard facilities yet, GB at least has the plans.

    And that's before you even consider the US Navy...
     
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  3. Riain Well-Known Member

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    I doubt it would be possible even in 20 or 30 years. It would be technically possible to build a fleet and fleet train to operate in the Western Atlantic from the 20s but oceanic amphibious capability only began in the 40s and 50s. To invade CONUS by ocean would require landing multiple divisions on day 1 followed by hundreds of divisions in following days, weeks and months.

    The best bet would be to secure forward bases with allies. But the 1916 defense act and NG mobilization was making the US a harder nut to crack as weeks rolled on.
     
  4. Tannenberg (Angry Argentinian Noises)

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    A Navy comparable to the United States? Maybe. Another completely different thing is invading the country itself
     
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  5. Albidoom Fuzzy Thing

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    Add to that that many nations of the German hegemony might not like being a vassal/puppet/marionette any transatlantic adventure of the German military is likely to trigger unrest if not outright rebellion against the Wilhelmine Empire.
     
  6. stevej713 Well-Known Member

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    Impossible. Defeating the US at sea is a tall order even for the UK by the 20th century. Concealing an invasion force and subsequently reinforcing and supplying across the Atlantic Ocean is simply beyond the scope for any country.
     
  7. Stenz Don't judge the past by the standards of today... Monthly Donor

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    Germany’s best (only?) hope is to build a large Capital Ship fleet and the attending naval bases in their various colonies. Then, once this is of sufficient level, they need to expand their influence. Eventually, there will be a clash of interests or influence against America. Then, War needs to occur and (this is the haaaard part) the German Navy needs to sufficiently defeat the American Navy to the point an invasion can be attempted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019 at 5:12 PM
  8. DougM Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that much of the D-day landings and the subsequent battles was supplied from the metarials stashed in England, basically the US (and Great Britain) had been stockpiling supplies for years. Germany is going to have to basically do it the hard way against a fully armed US.
    This is going to be a bloodbath. And keep in mind the US will be building its Army and Navy and of course it’s costal defenses up. And also they fight will take place under US air supremacy. And that is going to play hob with the invasion force.

    Frankly I think the forbidden sea mammal is more likely to succeed
     
  9. white crowe Well-Known Member

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    Germany launching a trans-Atlantic amphibious invasion against the United States is a fantasy given the distances involved and the logistic strain supporting a fleet at this distance would entail.

    But a British Government-in-Exile "carrying on the fight" after defeat by a Europe dominating German Empire is pure teeaboo nonsense, let alone the notion that Canada alike could constitute a threat to the Germans.

    Able to make themselves not worth the effort? Probably. Actually a threat? Hardly.
     
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  10. History Learner Well-Known Member

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    Yes, eventually.
     
  11. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

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    I'm not suggesting an Anglo-Canadian counterinvasion of ersatz Großdeutschland or madness in that vein, simply that if even the great Kaiserlische Marine is capable of building more ships (presumably they and the RN had some huge battle which made The Unmentionable Sea Mammal's Great Uncle possible) it would be Wilheboo wishful thinking to assume their rivals would just do nothing.
     
  12. gatordad699 Well-Known Member

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    As an academic exercise, sure, given enough time. Would it succeed, never. Go look at the combined GDP of GB and USA vs Europe. Plus this is post WWI. Huge manpower shortages all over Europe. Rebuilding to do, all of Europe to govern, Great Depression, etc. Germany would probably not be able to spend that much during the OTL interwar period.

    Production. US alone built around 300,000 aircraft during WWII. They didn’t enter until December 8, 1941. They started ramping down production before the war was over. Around 24 Essex class carriers. That’s not counting GB. Europe combined could not hope to match this output.

    Technology. After 0529 am on July 16, 1945 this is all speculation. It’s one thing to nuke enemies in your own territory, it’s quite easy to nuke an invasion fleet in the middle of the Atlantic. So no nukes. After 11 am January 17, 1955 surface ships of the era are completely outclassed by Nuclear submarines.

    Logistics. I’ve said this several times here. From the Soviet General in Red Storm. “Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.” If you used the Starship Enterprise and beamed your invasion troops directly to America, you could never ever supply them.

    Americans. Americans can be dumb, fat, stupid and lazy. Until something/someone pisses off the entire country. The country hated Japan after Pearl Harbor. Imagine if their homeland was threatened.

    IMHO this question is just about all the reasons Sea Mammal would fail on some industrial grade steroids.
     
  13. miketr Nuke Chucker

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    A couple of points.

    1) IGN was up to WW1 the second largest navy in terms of combat power. It would possible for a combined Europe to build a big enough battle fleet to defeat the USN.
    2) Best to look at historic German war plans.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_German_plans_for_the_invasion_of_the_United_States
    Its clear the German plans were not well coordinated between the army and navy.
    Also the plans are in form of a large raid rather than invasion of conquest
    Last the more serious plans involve seizing bases in Caribbean as a requirement for landings on the mainland
    3) What is the flash point going to be to move plans generated by junior officers into products of the naval & general staff? IE something other than paper exercise. Plans dont happen in vacuums, whats going to get the Germans to make real effort? What is US response?

    Michael
     
  14. Dorknought Well-Known Member

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    It takes the resources of a continent to invade another continent. Even then you need a staging post close by ie The UK. which was also a Great Power. You also need a 10:1 advantage in seapower over your opponent. Ie. Okinawa.
    So this ‘Geuropa’ would need UK and Japanese assistance and probably Mexican as well. Atrite US Naval power to 10:1 inferiority and then invade Cuba as a base of operations. Then hope the US comes to terms before having to invade the mainland.
     
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  15. Luminous Headwing Consulting

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    From where? If you have allies in the Caribbean, then why bother? And if you don't have allies in the Caribbean, it's practically as far away as an invasion of the mainland would be.

    The only problem here (if I am correct) is that the US battle line was specifically designed with the philosophy that an enemy must come forward and defeat it, as it is such a threat to enemy operations that it cannot be left unchecked and must be defeated.

    ------------

    The biggest question is what are we defining as German Hegemony, and how are Germany's naval programs improved by the victory? Is France now also working for Germany after just being ground under heel? Is Britain also shackled as well? Or is this the more reasonable German hegemony involving German victory after WW1, absorption of Austria/Bohemia/maybe other chunks and transforming the Brest-Livostk territories and former Austrian (And Ottoman, perhaps) territories as part of their sphere. Russia, France, and Britain wouldn't be helping Germany anytime soon in such a scenario as well.

    In the latter case, I'd say no, as you'd have Germany, its allies (mostly land powers), maybe Italy and co., whom all pretty much have fleets tailored to their immediate environs and whose smaller ships don't really have the range to reach any confrontation with the US in its home waters. So you'd need all new hulls for most of the smaller craft, while the US can build up as there are only a few reasons for the imperial powers to build fleets of long range warships on a mass scale.

    In the former case, I'll need a better explanation of why Germany's former enemies jumped back on "invade the US no questions asked" train :p Especially France.
     
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  16. Janrey Member

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    The only reasonable thing I can think of is a Germany allied with the United Kingdom that moves soldiers and supplies thanks to the Royal Navy and invades from Canada.
     
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  17. Lalli Well-Known Member

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    I can't see Germany being able to do that without that they invade firstly United Kingdom and destroy its navy and even that is difficult if not impossible or then ally with UK but why the country would accept such alliance? Best what Germans can do is raid East Coast but even that hardly ends very well and Americans probably would suffer minor damage. And why Germany even would do that? It hardly has anything against after it has won Great War.
     
  18. NiGHTS BMC-14

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    Maybe an Air Force combined with a Navy could do the job along with gaining good allies in Latin America and Asia. Send advisors to help them build up their own industries and militaries. You may also want to sabotage the U.S. from inside. Support pacifist political groups and political policies that focus on keeping infrastructure poor and people stupid and unhealthy. Use up a bunch of resources from Africa and send them to factories in Europe. Really, you wanna focus on sabstoging the U.S. from the inside. Also cut it off from the rest of the world. Put emphasis on long range technology. Ballistic missiles should be enough to really soften the U.S. for invasion, especially if it's nuclear.
     
  19. viperzero Well-Known Member

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    I mean what are they gunna do? Enslave all of Europe for decades And repurpose their economies to build a fleet to fight a country that still has a larger economy then all of them combined for reasons? I don’t think it’s happening
     
  20. Dorknought Well-Known Member

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    Canada agrees to take 1,000,000 German ‘soldier settlers’.