German Hegemony over Europe after World war 1, Can it build a navy to invade United States

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

I would say no.

A Greater German Empire which includes as conquests or satellites the whole of continental Europe, the British Isles, the Near East, Africa, Russia (including Russian Asia), and let us say the Indian subcontinent, would be capable of outproducing the US in warships.

However, the GGE could not produce enough to take complete control of a sea area adjacent to the coast of the US. And complete control would be required for an invasion. Bear in mind that projecting power becomes more difficult the further one goes from one's base.

 

[Luminous]

Actually the Kiel Canal is not the bottleneck (Locks are 1017ft long 147 ft wide 60 ft deep). Bismarck fits but she is too wide for the Panama Canal.

The limitation since before WW1 was the Locks at Wilhelmshaven.

The third lock was built during the war and opened in 1942 (1280ft long 187 ft wide 68 ft deep) but then clogged with scuttled uboats and filled in after the war.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[ennobee]

I would say no.

A Greater German Empire which includes as conquests or satellites the whole of continental Europe, the British Isles, the Near East, Africa, Russia (including Russian Asia), and let us say the Indian subcontinent, would be capable of outproducing the US in warships....
.

In other words, theoretically a victorious Kaiserreich in 1919 could theoretically conquer the US, but only after 50 years of rebuilding their own country and unifying the rest of Europe like the Prussians did 50 years ago with the German city states. And then it will probably need another 20 years to get itself on war footing and not just outproduce the US but actually get more and better weapons and the capacity to project their power across the ocean. So we're talking roughly the 1980's at best, the early 2000's most likely.

And all this assuming that over all this time Germany still WANTS a war, and not just lean back and enjoy the fruits of being the biggest industrial powerhouse and having trading partners all over the world.... Including America itself.

 

[ennobee]

PS, I started another thread expanding on my earlier post:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...wwi-usa-without-an-ocean-between-them.469566/

An ASB wargame between a WWI Germany and a WWI USA without the ocean. Either what if through some ASB magic the Germans can just teleport their troops to the US East coast and battle the US army on their own soil. Or more simply if this was just a wargame where one player takes the Kaiserreich army and the other the US Army and they agree on the continental US with the Germans starting somewhere at the eastern seaboard. Any ideas how the Germans would fare?

 

[DougM]

Well this is totally illogical as the US had these huge oceans to protect it so it built accordingly. With no oceans the the history of the US and it’s Army would be so radically different that it would be unrecognizable.
The US much like England relied on those oceans and the distance from Europe and Asia to protect it.

 

[Historian299]

Germany will never EVER invade North America.

Remember island hopping in the pacific? Armies need a close point to invade, supply, and retreat to if things go south.

Unless the Germans controlled Cuba, there’s no island close enough to invade from unless Mexico is a friendly nation.

And if the Germans had troops in Cuba or Mexico, the US will invade with thousands and thousands of troops. Ten times as many as the Germans can ship. Btw, the Germans would have to defeat both the American and British navies

Imagine the patriotic fervor of defending your home land from the hordes of huns.

And by some miracle the Germans land troops at some random point, it would be flooded with armed American citizens, state guards, and militia.

Oh, while mighty German army is fighting the Americans, expect every European nation under German occupation to revolt. And the Russian army to launch a full offensive.

The Germans who thought about this plan in real life must have thought the US was still the 13 colonies and were ripe for the picking.

They did not realize they had the GDP and industry to rival all of Europe combined. This 40 wars after waging the most destructive war in modern history AGANIST ITSELF (Civil War)

 

[Drizzt]

Well why exactly would a Germany that would pretty much be the poster child for a nation that is "sated" want to do so in the first place?

I was originally just going to post my previous sentence, but when I thought about my question I thought of something:
In OTL the US couldn't really build a Navy capable of invading Continental Europe either. We all know they successfully launched an invasion anyway. Reason is obvious: They did so in support of Germanys European enemies rathen than trying to do a transcontinental invasion based out of the US.
So to flip that, you could fulfill the AHC, if you envision a scenario in which the US are the bad guys. Perhaps a really really bad Depression leads to a fascist or communist takeover, who then proceed to invade their neighbours. In that scenario, Germany invading the US together with the Royal Navy instead of in opposition to it and with Canada and/or Mexico allied to the European coalition, thereby tying up US troops and/or providing a staging ground it becomes possible.

 

[Michele]

It's obvious that this scenario is essentially impossible, because of geostrategic and economic reasons chiefly.
What I always find mildly amusing in these cases is the mention of factors such as the patriotic fanaticism, the guerrilla and the everybody-has-guns notion, as if these would also make some difference.

The Poles were singularly and fervently patriotic in 1939, and the Japanese even more so in 1945, and yet that wasn't of much help.

Guerrilla can serve a purpose, if there is synergy with regular units and if it's lavishly supplied by an external source. Which it will be if this scenario arrives at the totally unlikely German landing - but in and by itself, guerrilla can only hold marginal territory the occupation forces aren't all that interested in clearing.

As to the everybody-has-guns notion, that was true of Germany in 1945, and see where that ended.

 

[DougM]

I will freely admit that in a scenario where pretty much the entire WORLD is ganging up on the US then an invasion could happen. But it is going to be very ugly and it is not going to be fast. And it is not 100% certain that it will succeed. It will depend on who, how, where and with what and even then be a matter of who gets luck and or has the best generals.

But by the start of WW1 the reality is that NO ONE on the planet is in a position to invade the US and make it stick. And almost no one is in position to get troops ashore in “invasion” numbers. Can they raid the US. Sure it is a large country with a long coast line. But putting several thousand well armed troops in the ground? Not happening. England could get the troops to the shore but even that is going to be hideously ugly.
Germany as it stands as of the day the Arch Duke is shot? Not going to happen. The amount of Thier Navy they can get tothe US coast is not big enough to be sure of the win much less protect the invasion fleet. And as noted wherever they leave at home is going to open themselves up to attack.
France will invade and take back its lost territory in a heart be as the come in on the side of there fellow Republic and good friends the US. At least that will be the excuse use to justify taking back the lost territory anyway.

And any logical realistic scenario would see the US having as much time to build up as the other side has.

This Well if Germany had twice the money three times the resources and 10 times the population and spent 10 years building up a secret navy then in perfect conditions they could take New York is pure hog wash. The world doesn’t work that way. The US would play a different game in that case. You can’t change everything so Germany is radically different and more powerful but the US is exactly the same. The US didn’t have an Army because I’d didn’t need one not because it could produce one.

And even if the do so however manage to attack the East Coast Germany still needs to listen to the Advise give to them by Rick in Casablanca
“There are some areas of New Your City I would not recommend you invade”

 

[The Gunslinger]

It's theoretically possible, but it requires a very friendly Britain, and likely a complicit Canada and allied Japan. I think a bigger issue is that the two don't really have anything worth fighting about. They'll both have their spheres and be too far apart to actually threaten one another's homeland.

 

[jacobk]

So to flip that, you could fulfill the AHC, if you envision a scenario in which the US are the bad guys. Perhaps a really really bad Depression leads to a fascist or communist takeover, who then proceed to invade their neighbours. In that scenario, Germany invading the US together with the Royal Navy instead of in opposition to it and with Canada and/or Mexico allied to the European coalition, thereby tying up US troops and/or providing a staging ground it becomes possible.

Yeah, a German hegemon couldn't do it. A Germany that beats out France and forms the "Entente Herzlich" with Great Britain, followed by France fading into irrelevance, followed by the US invading Canada in pursuit of its Manifest Destiny to reach the Arctic Circle... then you could see Germans marching down the eastern seaboard. Even after all that it's a stretch, though.

 

[Anti-GrammarNazi]

What are they going to do about the Royal Navy? Even if ze Chermans somehow take over Britain, presumably there would be a Government-in-Exile in Canada that would want to carry on the fight, and use Canada's vast resources to make more ships of their own. Even taking into consideration that you don't have the yard facilities yet, GB at least has the plans.

And that's before you even consider the US Navy...

Lol no, there is no way Britain would keep fighting after the loss of the British Isles.

I consider that scenario impossible, Britain wpuld come to terms with Germany as a superpower and its demoting into a Great Power, as it did with the USSR, before it came to this..

But if it happened and the UK falls, they are not going to fight from another continent.

 

[DougM]

I am not convinced that in 1930 or before the technology allowed for transportation and support of the size needed to pull off a cross Atlantic invasion. With no local support.

And the US is never going to put up with England continuing to control Canada or the Islands near the US if Germany wins the war and basically turns England into a puppet.

Also the US Navy budget is going to go through the roof. And the US has one huge advantage. It has home court advantage in this proposed navel battle. The ships don’t have to have the ability to travel across the ocean to fight and that is a big advantage in ship design. Add in that the local support for supplies fuel and repairs is a huge advantage.
Add in that any damaged ship trying to cross all the way back to Europe is a sitting duck for a submarine and it sort of works out kind of like the battle of England but with ships being able to be repaired,

No if the ASB proposal of Germany having complete control of basically All Europe, All Russia, All India, All Africa, and most of Great Britain’s colonies and other territories. And allied with Japan, This would be the largest most powerful Empire in the History of the world by a noticeable margin. But even then I am not convinced that a cross Atlantic invasion is going to work. As I am still not sure the technology was available. And Canada will be either neutral (I have no idea why they would as Germany took over England so why support them?) or the will be taken over by the US before Germany has time to solidify it’s gains.

If Germany gets one of the South American countries as a starting base then marches north they could pull it off. Problem is that by the time Germany can solidify its control on half the world the US can solidify the Americas (if you can wank Germany I can Wank The US)

Now if we assume the war is in 1930 to 1940 then the tech could be developed but it took a lot to invade little Islands in WW2. Of course this give the US time to arm itself.

So if you assume Germany can take over 1/2 the WORLD then build the largest army on earth while building the largest navy on Earth and inventing and building the ships and technology needed to invade and support an invasion across the Atlantic and do all of the in complete secrecy so that the US does nothing in opposition then I guess the OPs idea is doable the US can be successfully invaded.
But this has turned into the largest WANK I have ever read on this forum