German Carrier Aircraft

torten

When the Germans were building the Graf Zepplin, they decided the carrier might work better if they stuck some planes on it. So by 1940, the general plan was to have a Carrier version of the Bf 109, a Carrier version of the Ju 87, and a biplane called the Fieseler Fi 167, which later got dropped. When the Graf Zepplin looked like it might be completed in 1942, they were going to use the same Junkers Ju87 design, though they were going to some modify of them so that they could carry torpedos. They also looked at making a modifed version of Bf 109 to act as a carrier craft - the Me 155, which seemed to incorprate several features that might have made it a better carrier aircraft.

My question is: would these planes have been any good? I'm aware that adapting land based aircraft by giving them a tailhook doesn't make a good carrier aircraft, but the Me 155 design seems pretty ok from what I can see.

My second question is that did the Germans have any other aircraft that might have been viably adapted for naval aviation, such as the Fw 190?

 

Rubicon

Banned
Bf 109T would have been a fairly shitty carrier plane had the GZ ever become operational. Short range and very narrow landing gears.
The Ju 87R wouldn't have been a terrible dive bomber in the 40-41 timeframe, but not outstanding in any way.
Hardest one to judge is the Fi 167, on paper it looks decent and the Swordfish did good duty as a biplane torpedo bomber. But I'm sceptical.

As for other carrier planes, well the FW 190 is potentially possible, but other then that I have a hard time seeing any potential carrier planes in the German inventory.
 
Cymraeg

Cymraeg

torten said:
When the Germans were building the Graf Zepplin, they decided the carrier might work better if they stuck some planes on it. So by 1940, the general plan was to have a Carrier version of the Bf 109, a Carrier version of the Ju 87, and a biplane called the Fieseler Fi 167, which later got dropped. When the Graf Zepplin looked like it might be completed in 1942, they were going to use the same Junkers Ju87 design, though they were going to some modify of them so that they could carry torpedos. They also looked at making a modifed version of Bf 109 to act as a carrier craft - the Me 155, which seemed to incorprate several features that might have made it a better carrier aircraft.

My question is: would these planes have been any good? I'm aware that adapting land based aircraft by giving them a tailhook doesn't make a good carrier aircraft, but the Me 155 design seems pretty ok from what I can see.

My second question is that did the Germans have any other aircraft that might have been viably adapted for naval aviation, such as the Fw 190?
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Well, the Me155 would have had a wider undercarriage than the Me10, which would have been a good thing, as the Me109's undercarriage was so narrow that it would have been a death sentence for any inexperienced pilot trying to go for a deck landing on the GZ. The problem is that the GZ was never really likely to be completed - and they only started to really look at the Me155 in 1942.
 

Archibald

Banned
Seriously, a navalized FW-190 would be better than the navalized 109 - it has a much wider undercarriage track.
 

Keb

Archibald said:
Seriously, a navalized FW-190 would be better than the navalized 109 - it has a much wider undercarriage track.
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Well, you could try for a one-size-fits-all approach with the FW-190 - it did serve as a passable CAS bomber in the war with some modifications. It could also carry enough ordnance to carry a torpedo.

Which, considering how small the Graf Zeppelin's air group was, would be helpful. The design was obsolete before it began construction, because Germany didn't get to build carriers previously and didn't have a chance to learn/experiment.
 

HMS Warspite

Keb said:
Well, you could try for a one-size-fits-all approach with the FW-190 - it did serve as a passable CAS bomber in the war with some modifications. It could also carry enough ordnance to carry a torpedo.

Which, considering how small the Graf Zeppelin's air group was, would be helpful. The design was obsolete before it began construction, because Germany didn't get to build carriers previously and didn't have a chance to learn/experiment.
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Basically Graf Zeppelin was designed as large cruiser with a modest aviation complement, which was larger than on contemporary British ships of slightly smaller size by the way, but significantly smaller than contemporary USN or IJN carriers. The ship was armroed like a heavy cruiser as well, not like a carrier, as the main armored deck was similar in shape and placement as on all larger German warships of the period, indicating shellfire as main threat, not bombs form aircraft.
 

Deleted member 94680

HMS Warspite said:
Basically Graf Zeppelin was designed as large cruiser with a modest aviation complement, which was larger than on contemporary British ships of slightly smaller size by the way, but significantly smaller than contemporary USN or IJN carriers. The ship was armroed like a heavy cruiser as well, not like a carrier, as the main armored deck was similar in shape and placement as on all larger German warships of the period, indicating shellfire as main threat, not bombs form aircraft.
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Which means, in action, the GZ would have been toast. It seems, of the carriers sunk in WWII, only 3 were sunk by gunfire the rest by subs and the majority by aircraft.

What was her torpedo protection like?
 

thaddeus

Donor
have read the FW-190 was not suitable "Germany’s other premier fighter, the Focke-Wulf Fw 190, had no future as a carrier plane despite its combat prowess. Its landing characteristics, pilot visibility, and undercarriage would have necessitated a thorough redesign, almost a completely new plane."

Worth, Richard. Fleets of World War II (revised edition): Design History and Analysis for Every Ship of Every Navy
 

Lost Freeway

Banned
Stenz said:
Which means, in action, the GZ would have been toast. It seems, of the carriers sunk in WWII, only 3 were sunk by gunfire the rest by subs and the majority by aircraft.

What was her torpedo protection like?
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Come on now, the Swordfish will be toast if they try to get through her CAP of Bf-109s.:p
 

Deleted member 94680

Lost Freeway said:
Come on now, the Swordfish will be toast if they try to get through her CAP of Bf-109s.:p
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Ha! I see your Bf-109Ts and raise you a Seafire :winkytongue:

Seriously though, German increased Naval aviation would produce a British reaction, wouldn't it? The Seafire was first considered in '38, so test flights of the 109T would encourage the Admiralty to push harder for conversion of Spitfires.
 

tomo pauk

Do we know how wide/narrow was the udercarriage of Wildcat, Seafire, Bf 109? In exact terms, ie. so many cm or so many inches?
 

Lost Freeway

Banned
Stenz said:
Ha! I see your Bf-109Ts and raise you a Seafire :winkytongue:

Seriously though, German increased Naval aviation would produce a British reaction, wouldn't it? The Seafire was first considered in '38, so test flights of the 109T would encourage the Admiralty to push harder for conversion of Spitfires.
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I know, I was being facetious. Most TLs with a beefed-up Kriegsmarine simply have the Admiralty sitting around guzzling lead paint while the Germans build carriers with awesome planes.
 

Rubicon

Banned
Lost Freeway said:
I know, I was being facetious. Most TLs with a beefed-up Kriegsmarine simply have the Admiralty sitting around guzzling lead paint while the Germans build carriers with awesome planes.
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And most timelines with a beefed up Admiralty simply have the Kriegsmarine sitting around guzzling lead paint....
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
thaddeus said:
have read the FW-190 was not suitable "Germany’s other premier fighter, the Focke-Wulf Fw 190, had no future as a carrier plane despite its combat prowess. Its landing characteristics, pilot visibility, and undercarriage would have necessitated a thorough redesign, almost a completely new plane."

Worth, Richard. Fleets of World War II (revised edition): Design History and Analysis for Every Ship of Every Navy
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Oh, a Navalized FW-190, they would end up with a better performing Brewster Buffalo.

HA7001-Buffalo-USN-Bottom.jpg

Note bottom fuselage windows so the pilot had decent visibility on approach, or just do the banking landing approach like the Corsair required. That craft also had a bottom window until the F4F-1a
 
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