The POD is that Napoleon gives Fulton a chance to explain himself further and is convinced--I think by the time Napoleon was willing to reconsider, Fulton had already gone to work for Britain.
French Invasion of Britain
- Thread starter ahscardinal
- Start date
The POD is that Napoleon gives Fulton a chance to explain himself further and is convinced--I think by the time Napoleon was willing to reconsider, Fulton had already gone to work for Britain.
I think that if you posit a different Trafalgar then maybe you can the French across. I think that once you do get the French across the Channel, then there is the pretty good possibility that they stay there and win. The thing about a navy is that it needs a port to fight out of. If Napoleon is going to invade England it will be with a huge army, and he will go for the ports, hoping to basically cut the British navy off from its supplies and force it to retreat. I don't know how many troops he was planning on bringing over, but it had to be at least 50,000, and probably more. If he can get control of enough of the ports, then he could force a significant chunk of the British Navy to find new ports of call, and I don't know where those would be. I am going to guess Ireland would be out, because if Napoleon was successful enough to overrun a fair chuck of Britain, I think the Irish would rise again. With no British troops to (immediately) put them down, and a fair number of French troops, they could at least gain control over Ireland, and deny its use to the British navy, which would be a big blow, even if you don't see King Jerome's Irish Guard occupying London.
This is very close to ASB but....
What if France made the USA an ally?
They both hated the Brits and they both were in position to hurt them. As well after the Lousiana Purchase their releations were really well off if the USA distracts Britain enough in N. America then the French could do a surprise invasion.
What if France made the USA an ally?
They both hated the Brits and they both were in position to hurt them. As well after the Lousiana Purchase their releations were really well off if the USA distracts Britain enough in N. America then the French could do a surprise invasion.
MrP
Banned
Isn't the War of 1812 IOTL?
I doubt the Americans could distract the British sufficiently. If they were to do strikingly well, they would demand the attentions of more of the Army, which would need more of the Navy to escort them across, and they might get stuck there when the French fleet has a spot of good weather. But that's a lot of conditionals.
Then again, there was some American teenager the other day talking about having the Continental Congress spend its money on a fleet of impossible battleships in the AWI. If they did something along those lines afterwards that could tie up the RN. And we can even get some use out of the poor old French officers who fled the Revolution, by giving them new commands. If I'm honest, though, I'm a bit (well, a lot) unsure about this plan, too . . .
Isn't the War of 1812 IOTL?
I doubt the Americans could distract the British sufficiently. If they were to do strikingly well, they would demand the attentions of more of the Army, which would need more of the Navy to escort them across, and they might get stuck there when the French fleet has a spot of good weather. But that's a lot of conditionals.
Then again, there was some American teenager the other day talking about having the Continental Congress spend its money on a fleet of impossible battleships in the AWI. If they did something along those lines afterwards that could tie up the RN. And we can even get some use out of the poor old French officers who fled the Revolution, by giving them new commands. If I'm honest, though, I'm a bit (well, a lot) unsure about this plan, too . . .
The problem is the situation in 1800-1805 is not really like 1940, the British are actually pretty strong on land. Including militia units there are about half a million troops to draw on - so the invasion may well simply be fought to a standstill.
MrP
Banned
Aye, but if one says that one runs the risk of being accused of being overly favourable toward one's own nation.
67th Tigers
Banned
This gave me the idea for a PoD.
POD: Villeneuve evades Calder's squadron and breaks the blockade of Brest, then with Ganteaume's squadron and the OTL Spanish reinforcements drive off Cornwallis' squadron at Brest and effect the French Sealion.
However, with the Armee du Angleterre ashore, Napoleon is stopped dead at the Royal Military Canal and Collingwood, Calder, Nelson and Cornwallis unite and smash the French-Spanish fleet off Dover.
Napoleon's Army is cut off from supplies, beseiged by superior numbers in well prepared positions and eventually surrenders, the Emperor becoming a British prisoner.
What next?
POD: Villeneuve evades Calder's squadron and breaks the blockade of Brest, then with Ganteaume's squadron and the OTL Spanish reinforcements drive off Cornwallis' squadron at Brest and effect the French Sealion.
However, with the Armee du Angleterre ashore, Napoleon is stopped dead at the Royal Military Canal and Collingwood, Calder, Nelson and Cornwallis unite and smash the French-Spanish fleet off Dover.
Napoleon's Army is cut off from supplies, beseiged by superior numbers in well prepared positions and eventually surrenders, the Emperor becoming a British prisoner.
What next?
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67th Tigers
Banned
I meant to add, O'Meara's briefing to La Emperor on the strength of the British:
"I replied, "that perhaps if he effected a landing with 200,000 men he might succeed in taking London, but that I was convinced his army would be ultimately destroyed. That such was the National Spirit of the English, their jealousy and their hatred of the French yoke, that it would operate like an electric shock amongst all ranks. That however some might be discontented and in opposition to the government, yet still that all parties would unite in expelling and annihilating the French. That the fear of being made a French Province, or even more of being humbled by France, would have been sufficient to induce every Englishman to arm and rally round the Constitution. That in a few weeks, he would have had 500,000 Infantry and 50 or 60,000 cavalry to oppose him. That perhaps at first he would have been successful in two or three pitched battles if the English Generals had been foolish enough to (78r, p.4) meet him, but that his army would have been destroyed piecemeal and finally annihilated"."
- retreived from http://www.napoleon.org/en/reading_room/articles/files/omeara_napo_invasion.asp
"I replied, "that perhaps if he effected a landing with 200,000 men he might succeed in taking London, but that I was convinced his army would be ultimately destroyed. That such was the National Spirit of the English, their jealousy and their hatred of the French yoke, that it would operate like an electric shock amongst all ranks. That however some might be discontented and in opposition to the government, yet still that all parties would unite in expelling and annihilating the French. That the fear of being made a French Province, or even more of being humbled by France, would have been sufficient to induce every Englishman to arm and rally round the Constitution. That in a few weeks, he would have had 500,000 Infantry and 50 or 60,000 cavalry to oppose him. That perhaps at first he would have been successful in two or three pitched battles if the English Generals had been foolish enough to (78r, p.4) meet him, but that his army would have been destroyed piecemeal and finally annihilated"."
- retreived from http://www.napoleon.org/en/reading_room/articles/files/omeara_napo_invasion.asp
MrP
Banned
Aye; I'd not assume this'd defeat France. I'd expect to see someone appoint himself caretaker "until Nappy's return."
Pretty much. The only way he could make things worse for himself in that scenario is by capturing the King, because then the British would rip them to pieces rather than shoot them.
Faeelin
Banned
And then shoot fireballs from their eyes, and lightning bolts from their arses.
Patriotic talk is all well and good, but I don't see how this proves anything one way or the other.
Frex, let's imagine that George III loses his mind (again) during the invasion from the stress. George IV comes to power, and the British army is defeated in the field.
Are George IV and Fox smart enough to resist, or do they fold for a peace that includes limited disarmament, reparations, and the loss of certain colonies?
Erm, I've lost you there. The Russian campaign will be known as the British campaign?
As a phrase summarising a disasterous venture: There'd be no march on Moscow and it's unfortunate return, but there would be the loss of an army and the capture of the Emperor in Britain....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeelin
Why is the Republic dead? There are still plenty of troops along the Rhine.
Aye; I'd not assume this'd defeat France. I'd expect to see someone appoint himself caretaker "until Nappy's return."
I'd presume the Marshalls would quickly dissolve to squabbling over the who's in charge, and carve out their own territories - a la Alexander a few millennia earlier? The British, now fully committed to the situation after being invaded, would land in Normandy to re-establish Louis and restore stability - with the Prussians and Austrians to help.
Faeelin
Banned
Okay, a couple of problems I see here.
Britain will be in no shape to intervene on the continent immediately. When the French land, there will be a run on the Bank of England, for instance, not to mention the destruction of its own troops.
Moreover, these are not Alexander's generals; a much better comparison would be generals during the late Roman republic.And even so, it depends on whose around; but the prospect of an Austrian-British-Prussian invasion concentrates the mind wonderfully.
In short I find the idea of them dividing France up amongst themselves and falling to infighting fairly implausible.
MrP
Banned
I don't believe the British penchant for over-spiced curries was in full flow (no pun intended) by this point.
The Patriotic Talk Tee Emm is just saying that Britain could surrender to anyone else quite easily compared to what would happen if they surrendered to France. We have a bit of a history, y'know.
Faeelin
Banned
A few things come to mind:
1) Shipping transports full of goods to weapons isn't especially difficult. I could even imagine some neutral merchant doing so. If Boney could get his men to Egypt, the French can get guns to Belfast.
2) The Penninsular War showed that a combination of guerillas and professional soldiers could go quite well. And Lazare had plenty of experience suppressing the Vendee.
They say poachers make the best gamekeepers...
I don't say France wins. I do say that England loses.
67th Tigers
Banned
The defence plans had created an alternate command centre for the King and the Government at Weedon, Northamptonshire. The relay system meant that from the enemy off the shore being sited to the King leaving London was less than an hour....
This alternative command post remained in effect well past the ACW, which is another point missed entirely in Stars and Stripes Triumphant.....
As for Ireland, remember, there are more HMG troops in Ireland than there were United Irishmen....