Alright, your challenge should you choose to accept is for a French invasion of the British Isles under Napoleon to take place and sucessfully defeat the British forces, either expelling the British government all together or with some type of peace heavily favorable. Kudos to anyone who can explain how the invasion could suceede and ithe ramifications of a British defeat on their home island.
French Invasion of Britain
- Thread starter ahscardinal
- Start date
sumwhereinCA
Banned
in order for this to happen Trafalgar must be won, the British fleet must be lured away or destroyed. Most likely destroyed for then the troop ships could not be ambushed. I think the best place for invasion would be Ireland for than Napoelon could grant the Irish Independence from Britain and give popular support for Napoeleon. than probally onto Scotland and Wales than into England. though i highly doubt any of this could happen for the Royal Navy was just too powerful at this time period and Napoelon would most likely want to attack England directly, probally just like the Normans did. Also Prussia and Russia could use this discration to attack the Empire
If Napoleon bought the services of Robert Fulton and built some steamships, he could transport an army across the Channel during a calm day when the RN can do little but fume.
Of course, if the winds change unexpectedly, he could be in very deep trouble...
Of course, if the winds change unexpectedly, he could be in very deep trouble...
Thande
Donor
I'm not saying that's impossible, but given what happened in OTL, it's more likely that Fulton would build steam tugs that would tow the French's conventional fleet across the Channel.
Having said that, a lot of people don't realise that even the large ships of the line of the RN had emergency oar ports that let them be rowed like a galley (although the crews weren't trained for it, of course) and were commonly towed along by their gigs on calm days.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Given enough steamships couldn't he defeat the British, by attacking from the advantageous side
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Before Waterloo did Napoleon himself ever fight the British on land? The French did fight the British a lot in the Peninsula but I don't think Napoleon himself was ever there. On the continent, where did he fight them?
The British were the only ones that could fire 4 volleys per minute to the French 3, I've read somewhere.
Even so, I do think that if Boney got his boys on the island he'd hand the Brits their butt in small slices. Until Wellington there was simply noone, nowhere who could beat him and even then it was only because he was declining precipitately after Russia that Wellington took him at all.
The British were the only ones that could fire 4 volleys per minute to the French 3, I've read somewhere.
Even so, I do think that if Boney got his boys on the island he'd hand the Brits their butt in small slices. Until Wellington there was simply noone, nowhere who could beat him and even then it was only because he was declining precipitately after Russia that Wellington took him at all.
Thande
Donor
You're on the right lines, but it was more like the average British redcoat could fire 3 rounds a minute and his French counterpart could fire 1 or 2. This was not that important to the French as they attacked in column, in which the psychological effect of the mass of men marching towards the enemy's fragile line was what won the battle and caused the enemy to panic. It worked against the Germans a lot, but the British's higher volleying rate meant that they could wear down the columns enough that they would collapse before they could reach the British lines, which made all the difference. Only the very best British soldiers managed 4 rounds a minute.
It depends how many British regular regiments were stationed in Britain at the time. Certainly the yeomanry and the militia would have been torn to shreds against Napoleon's forces, but if there were several regiments in the country, Boney would need a large army to defeat them all, and then there's the question of resupply. He might be able to get them across the channel in 6 hours, but then they'll be cut off and unavailable for resupply from the Continent when the RN holds the Channel again. La maraude can only cover some of that...NapoleonXIV said:
*in Leonard Nemoy's voice*
You would make a ship sail faster and against the winds by lighting a bonfire under her deck? I have no time for such nonsense.
Walcheren comes to mind.
Not exactly a brilliant british victory, even if it wasn't Napoleon on the french side.
Oh, and Napoleon has been in Spain in end of 1808
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Flocculencio
Donor
IIRC the British only sent their expeditionary force to the Peninsula in 1809.
RE Napoleon landing and facing regular British regiments...just how good would the average British regiment be? I mean assuming a landing within a year of an altered Trafalgar, will Britain actually have enough hardened regiments on hand? It's not as if Napoleon is going to be facing a magically ISOTed Wellington complete with the Peninsular Army from 1811 in OTL. I'm guessing that at this point, the only real veteran troops the British would have would be those who had served in India.
Of course, as Thande has pointed out, having better troops won't matter if Napoleon can't resupply them. Southern England might end up sacked and raped but Bonaparte will be worn down.
The question is if a landing in force will actually scare Britain into seeking terms. If Napoleon is at the gates of London will the British sue for peace or fall back and fight on?
Of course the biggest problem with all PODs of this sort is that if resources are being spent on giving the French fleet the capabilities to crush the Royal Navy or to force the Channel for long enough to land an army, those resources aren't being spent on the Army.
Suffren is a good bet (although not *that* good, whereas he was certainly a match for the British admirals of his day it's going some to present him as a French Nelson). The problem with him though is that he's getting on a bit - he'd be 76 at the time of Trafalgar - and to get him in command in the 1800's requires him to survive the 1790's and particularly the Terror, which given he's the 3rd son of the Marquis of St Tropez is not a given (IIRC the killing or driving into exile of so many noble officers during that period and the distruction of the skills base they represented is often given as a key reason for the relatively poor performance of the French navy in the revolutionary and Napoleonic period).
Suffren somehow surviving and retaining command is a big butterfly however, and would probably change the war beyond recognition - to take one obvious example, he does not strike me as the sort of Admiral who would allow bad weather to prevent him from landing Hoche's army in Bantry Bay in December 1796. The Irish revolt of 1797 would go somewhat differently with the presence of a large French army under an experienced general in the field...
Like many other members have stated it’s a matter of logistics, did the French at the time have the capacity to support the massive invasion fleet and force necessary to defeat the British? Would the invasion draw resources from other fronts (if any) putting France its self at risk? Can the Economy support this said invasion? Are the capacities of French controlled ship yards and foundries great enough to produce what is needed to for the invasion? Also if Napoleon is off sacking London could his political enemies at home make a move against him?
Summer 1808. There was a small chance of an engagement between Napoleon and the British in the winter of 1808 when Sir John Moore marched his army against Napoleon's lines of communication in order to disrupt his invasion of southern Spain. Napoleon managed to turn his men around much faster than anyone expected and almost trapped the British, but Moore saw the threat in time and managed to evade the trap.
There were 66,000 regular troops in England in December 1805, and another 100,000 or so militia (the militia were trained and equipped up to regular standards, but not liable for overseas service) plus a hotch-potch of up to half a million men in other volunteer and part time units whose quality was rather more variable.
As for quality - well, the bad years of the 1790's are well past by any likely invasion date and the British army had worked out how to beat the French at least as early as 1801 (Battle of Alexandria) and it didn't take the Duke of Wellington to do it either.
Exactly, and this was pretty much the calculation of the British government of the day.
The plan was certainly to fight on. British preparations in the event of invasion were actually very advanced, and had even gone so far as preparing the village of Weedon in Northamptonshire to act as a back up capital in the event of London becoming unsafe.
Well, quite. A point that can't be stressed often enough. What are Austria and Prussia doing while Napoleon is running down the army in order to build a fleet capable of taking on the Royal Navy?
67th Tigers
Banned
About 170,000 regulars/militia* (42,000 in Ireland and the rest in GB), another 12,000 "on passage", roughly 22,000 Foreign Troops and 385,151 Volunteers**
They can put about half a million men into the field to oppose an invasion.
* Militia in British terms are regular troops who can't serve outside the UK, the part timers are designated local militia/ volunteers.
** Oddly, these part timers spent more time training than French conscripts
They can put about half a million men into the field to oppose an invasion.
* Militia in British terms are regular troops who can't serve outside the UK, the part timers are designated local militia/ volunteers.
** Oddly, these part timers spent more time training than French conscripts
Thande
Donor
As RPW@Cy says, the closest Napoleon came to fighting British troops before Waterloo was in the campaign that terminated in Corunna, but Sir John Moore managed to manoeuvre the troops out of the way while Napoleon was there, and he then left Spain to tackle some other continental war (IIRC) before Corunna, delegating command to his generals.
When we discuss this, fhaessig usually advocates a fairly early POD to get a more competent French Navy. There's another way around that, though: a worse Royal Navy. OTL a massive rebuilding and modernisation programme was created by Pitt the Younger to recover from the embarrassment of the American Revolutionary War. Ironically, if the ARW is avoided and America stays British, Britain herself might then be conquered by France a few years later...
(Of course, that wouldn't be anything like the OTL Napoleonic Wars due to butterflies)
When we discuss this, fhaessig usually advocates a fairly early POD to get a more competent French Navy. There's another way around that, though: a worse Royal Navy. OTL a massive rebuilding and modernisation programme was created by Pitt the Younger to recover from the embarrassment of the American Revolutionary War. Ironically, if the ARW is avoided and America stays British, Britain herself might then be conquered by France a few years later...
(Of course, that wouldn't be anything like the OTL Napoleonic Wars due to butterflies)
randomkeith
Banned
Would it be possible for the Irish rebelion in 1797 to succeed with the assistance of the French.
Who would now find the back door to England unlocked and probally a rather large army of Irish soldiers keen to turn the tables and invade England for a change????
Possible or ASBish???? I'm going with possible with only a few thousand French troops landing in Ireland the rebelion would have received a massive boost. "The French are here rise up against the English" ect ect ect
Who would now find the back door to England unlocked and probally a rather large army of Irish soldiers keen to turn the tables and invade England for a change????
Possible or ASBish???? I'm going with possible with only a few thousand French troops landing in Ireland the rebelion would have received a massive boost. "The French are here rise up against the English" ect ect ect
Thande
Donor
That was 1798. OTL only some French troops got there and the crossing killed Louise Lazare Hoche, who in another TL could have been an alt-Napoleon figure as he had the same personal style of general-ship and ambition.
I don't think a French success is very likely. Although they have the advantage of being supported by a fair number of the natives, unlike with an invasion of England, the problem of supply remains, as the RN would rapidly cut the island off from the sea. It's not as though Ireland has vast stores of powder, ball and shot. The French have successfully landed in Ireland before to support anti-British operations, but these were always put down. English paranoia aside, I don't think many Irish would have signed up for an invasion of England from Irleand per se., although plenty poor might have joined the French army out of pragmatism, as with the British in OTL. Which assumes they're there long enough for it to matter.