Forget the C.S.A.- Rivals to the U.S.
- Thread starter Strategos' Risk
- Start date
Texas really isn't implausible, unlikely, but not implausible. If Houston dies from a heart attack or some such event Lamar will be the main leader in Texas politics. Texan politics revolved largely around individuals, not parties. And I think if he wanted to, he could have kept Texas independant.
Canada is possible too. If Canada can win in 1812, and takes control of the Northwest (Northwest at time anyways) a more northerly Oregon trail could be established firmly entrenching Britain/Canada there too. And while his state won't oppose America soon, it could by the mid 20th Century.
Canada is possible too. If Canada can win in 1812, and takes control of the Northwest (Northwest at time anyways) a more northerly Oregon trail could be established firmly entrenching Britain/Canada there too. And while his state won't oppose America soon, it could by the mid 20th Century.
I'm not going to say that you're full of shit, but I do want statistics and proof that this "drove US industrialization." That's a pretty wild claim, especially when there are numerous other iron deposits across the US. The biggest advantage of the Iron Range, based on the wiki, is its location to the Great Lakes for shipping. But by the time railroads came into being, that was much less of a problem, such as in Birmingham (which is based by a near mountain range of coal and iron).
Here's a map of American coal and iron deposits. Notice how there are numerous other iron depostis known as of 1910 near rivers and rail centers. I count five in Wisconsin alone, several in southwest Montana and New Mexico by major rivers, and plenty across the Appalachians, both north and South.
http://etc.usf.edu/Maps/pages/2000/2085/2085.htm
So would moving the border 60 miles south have given Canada a mountain of iron? Yes. But it would hardly have transformed Canada into an industrial and population behemoth (just look at the population density area of it now; hardly world-shattering), it would in no way have cut off the basic resource of American industry, and wouldn't have been enough to have made America an agricultural nation as opposed to what it is now.. Minissota is already agricultural, and many other parts of the US as well. If you fly over the central US, you don't see endless factories from horizon to horizon; you see endless farms.
So please, provide statistics or other proof that American industialization is dependent on a single iron source, and that without it the US could in no way have industrialized. Please. I'm very interested to see how you will explain that.
Texas as a peer competitor? Excuse me while I laugh. Texas was perpetually on the edge of bankruptcy just trying to defend its borders from the occasional half-hearted raid from Mexico. Should Texas try to stay independent, the chances of it holding anywhere near all the territory it has today (and don't forget that it claimed much of New Mexico and Arizona as well) is effectively nil. Mexico could beat Texas if it set its mind to it, let alone the US.
A problem with this, though, is demographics. Britain didn't have any settlers to claim hold of Oregon. The US not only had settlers, but had also been fighting and beating off the indians. A "1812-that-goes-horribly-wrong" could see American concessions to Canada, but I'm willing to bet that they would be in the north (the Maine-Canada border dispute was a major tension for a good time because it could effect the movement of British troops to defend Eastern Canada) and not the North West, where Britain had a much weaker claim/presence/need. There is no historical hindsight, remember, to tell them that the North West is going to be industrial heartland for tanks and planes and cars at a time when there are no tanks and planes and cars to be built.
France holds/conquers Cuba; Louis XVII escapes to Cuba, which gets renamed Louisiana. He and his successors take over the rest of the Caribbean.
Another scenario: Maybe the southern states are threatening to secede over the slavery issue, and they are causing a lot of trouble and inconvenience for the north.
Under what circumstances could Mexico take over the Southern US states?
Mexico takes over Texas, Arizona and California, and the Northern US states are willing to let Mexico conquer/take over the southern US states. The US civil war becomes a war between the Southern states and Mexico, which the Northern states stay out of. This would cause decades of resentment against the North, I'm sure--but how plausible is it?
Another scenario: Maybe the southern states are threatening to secede over the slavery issue, and they are causing a lot of trouble and inconvenience for the north.
Under what circumstances could Mexico take over the Southern US states?
Mexico takes over Texas, Arizona and California, and the Northern US states are willing to let Mexico conquer/take over the southern US states. The US civil war becomes a war between the Southern states and Mexico, which the Northern states stay out of. This would cause decades of resentment against the North, I'm sure--but how plausible is it?
There are a few possibilities. My first thought is essentially what people before have said, Canada and Mexico. Divided, they don't amount to much, but if there was some alliance between them, it would be tough for the USA to fight a two front war. You'd have to make some changes to Mexico, however, and knowing nothing about Mexican history, I wouldn't know where to start. But a Mexico that retains California is a Mexico that could rival the USA, along with some allies and foreign support.
We could have some other break-away American Republic. In the early America, there was a lot of open land that people could go to and claim, like Texas. If they could be recognized by Britain or France, it could cause trouble for the USA. Or, an alternate civil war, like some kind of Socialist uprising creates a Union of Socialist American States.
My favorite idea, however, would be a China-wank. China modernizes and discovers America(as IOTL), and then begins to colonize the California region. Eventually, the colony expands into the Pacific Northwest, Alaska, and Mexico, and begins to clash with the USA over the middle of the America. Now granted, this would probably need a really early POD, which could butterfly away the USA, but I know too little about Chinese history 1500-1800 to know if it's really doable.
We could have some other break-away American Republic. In the early America, there was a lot of open land that people could go to and claim, like Texas. If they could be recognized by Britain or France, it could cause trouble for the USA. Or, an alternate civil war, like some kind of Socialist uprising creates a Union of Socialist American States.
My favorite idea, however, would be a China-wank. China modernizes and discovers America(as IOTL), and then begins to colonize the California region. Eventually, the colony expands into the Pacific Northwest, Alaska, and Mexico, and begins to clash with the USA over the middle of the America. Now granted, this would probably need a really early POD, which could butterfly away the USA, but I know too little about Chinese history 1500-1800 to know if it's really doable.
Thanks. Other threads here have discussed a Chinese colonization of North America. Apparently it was considered too distant and uncivilized to bother with much. They might have established a few cities, but--according to others here--they didn't have the incentive to go expanding their frontiers all the way across the continent.
Apparently, even if they discovered gold, they wouldn't necessarily expand their colonies much. But then maybe there'd be a warlord doing what Genghis Khan did across the American plains...
William Sanders had a good alternate history novel about this...Journey to Fusang was the title.
Apparently, even if they discovered gold, they wouldn't necessarily expand their colonies much. But then maybe there'd be a warlord doing what Genghis Khan did across the American plains...
William Sanders had a good alternate history novel about this...Journey to Fusang was the title.
How about instead of one main rival several larger ones?
A Cherokee and Iroquois State, an independent Texas, a Mexico that hangs on to the "Mexican Cession" ('specially California) and a Canada that gets Oregon (technically Britain but it will become independent at some point.
I'm very fascinated by a surviving Indian state, particularly the Cherokees since I am part Cherokee.
A Cherokee and Iroquois State, an independent Texas, a Mexico that hangs on to the "Mexican Cession" ('specially California) and a Canada that gets Oregon (technically Britain but it will become independent at some point.
I'm very fascinated by a surviving Indian state, particularly the Cherokees since I am part Cherokee.
An independent Hispanic New Mexico?
To be honest, I can't see it as a peer to the US, but what if the Bourbons administratively split New Mexico off from Mexico. By the time of Mexican independence, New Mexico has a tradition of independence and has probably progressed considerably faster economically without having to deal with the bureaucracy of Mexico City.
Probably wouldn't work. What I'm trying to get at with this is that the northern regions of Mexico were considerably more dynamic in many ways than the center. Maybe a split that went beyond New Mexico into northern Mexico, pulling in several of the frontier states. Give them a separate administration for several decades before Mexican independence and you could end up with a country that contained the most dynamic parts of Mexico but left the corrupt center as a separate state.
To be honest, I can't see it as a peer to the US, but what if the Bourbons administratively split New Mexico off from Mexico. By the time of Mexican independence, New Mexico has a tradition of independence and has probably progressed considerably faster economically without having to deal with the bureaucracy of Mexico City.
Probably wouldn't work. What I'm trying to get at with this is that the northern regions of Mexico were considerably more dynamic in many ways than the center. Maybe a split that went beyond New Mexico into northern Mexico, pulling in several of the frontier states. Give them a separate administration for several decades before Mexican independence and you could end up with a country that contained the most dynamic parts of Mexico but left the corrupt center as a separate state.
Wyragen-TXRG4P
Banned
Would not do alone.
Things are calme in the 1830s and 1840s, much of the 1850s. Hovewer, things changes in the latter half of the 1850s.
The French conquers Mexico, with Texas opportunistically siding with them, they face guerilla warfare hovewer. In exchange for helping Maximilian maintaining control over Mexico, the Texans are granted California(1861) and soon after gold is discovered there (1862).
The south still attempt to become independent (1864) but Britain side with them this time, parts of the US North-East becomes part of Canada.
1867-1869, France intervenes in Spanish civil war and put in power pro-French regime there.
Napolean 3 attempt expansion into Germany but end up uniting many German states behind Prussia and is defeated, revolutionnary war in Mexico begin as a result, Texas expand borders south once more in 1875-1878 period.
The USA militarises under Lincoln, when Britain declares war to Greater Prussia over the seizure of Istanbule in 1881 by Greater Prussia and its balkanic allies, the US declares war in support and is assisted by a Russian expedition force.
CS forces are smashed quickly, gas and burning liquids are used to clear trenches and defensive positions, the British launch a serie of naval attacks on the US east coast.
In 1882, war with Prussia ends with Britain being granted its share of Constantinople and the harbour there(remant of the ottoman empire is less independent from London than Australia and India, becomes TTLs General Governement of Poland in the following decades), France and Spain declares war to the USA for an alliance with Britain.
The USA win against the CSA but the greater strenght of the Canadian/French/British empires eventually triumph and even more territories are gained in the North East. Remnants of the CSA prefer Texan influence over being a British puppet.
WW1 start with the USA discovering the Haber process(different name TTL), sign a non-agression pact with Texas (that takes control of the deep south) and attack Canada in full strenght, the canadians are beaten before the French-British-Spanish can come to their assistance.
US east coast faces a serie of attacks but the British fail to gain a foothold back on the continent.
The USA, once confident the allies are not a threat, demand return of all confederate territories to it and launch a massive attack before Texas gives its response.
The attack meet with prepared positions hovewer, allies comes to the assistance of Texas, while Russian Imperial forces strikes the US in the west, Cossacks rampages through much of the mid-west.
Finally, revolutionnaries begin strikes that breakes US ammunition production, major US offensive fail as a result, more strikes results from the ensuing defeats and the US navy personel begin revolting against the governement, junta is overthrowed and replaced with what historians would later call the The Pittsburgh Republic.
The USA is humiliated and reduced to a second-rate power by the peace treaty, France becomes enough confident due to the american campaigns to attack eastward, striking through Belgium (past fortifications in Alsace-Lorraine) and seizing the Rhineland.
Spain and Britain, seeing the sucess of the French and fearing a French defeat by Berlin and its allies would grant domination over the continent, joins.
Texas conserves the deep south, Amendement on religious tolerance(unless said religion is a source of civil disorder) means the Deseret state joins Texas.
Just brainstorming another idea: Perhaps an alt-Mormonism(or another religion) explodes in popularity, gaining huge amounts of followers. They then proceed to head over to the Uta and California territory, where they set up their own theocratic nation, unrecognized by the USA. This succeeds only because they get support from Britain, who was having one of those semi-annual spats with the USA. They gain a huge influx of people after the successful Taiping Rebellion in China sends a ton of refuges their way, and a huge influx of money after gold is discovered. After the Civil War, the USA finally comes around to this new threat, but by this point the new theocracy is too powerful to be considered a minor threat, and a war-weary USA backs down.
I wanna hear more about this 'Bruce' nation ...
The nation of Bruce is inhabited by Bruce. Its government is of the Bruce, for the Bruce, and by the Bruce. It is currently suffering from some financial difficulties, but with the support of the Empire of Munro, the future of Bruce seems hopeful.
Bruce