I thought I would start a thread for anyone who wishes to continue discussing Fear, Loathing, and Gumbo/Rumsfeldia. The old thread was discontinued, Drew hasn't appeared for a long time, and Bookmark1995 was banned.
Fear, Loathing, and Gumbo/Rumsfeldia Con't
- Thread starter David Ritz
- Start date
I recently discovered an OTL book that would be of MUCH greater relevance in TTL. It's a prediction by a leading French economic advisor to Mitterand (who has been in charge for longer in TTL) named Jacques Attali that BOTH of the Cold War powers of the USA and USSR would decline and a France-lead Europe and Japan-led Pacific Rim would be the new powers of the 21st Century!
In a world where the US balkanizes post-Rumsfeld and post-CV and China remains permanently fractured after the Lesser Mao, coupled with the greater technological edge of even OTL France and Japan (France had its own version of the Internet in the form of Minitel as far back as 1982), this book would be of FAR greater relevance in this world!!!!
In a world where the US balkanizes post-Rumsfeld and post-CV and China remains permanently fractured after the Lesser Mao, coupled with the greater technological edge of even OTL France and Japan (France had its own version of the Internet in the form of Minitel as far back as 1982), this book would be of FAR greater relevance in this world!!!!
Well there is the big red blot in the east aka a semireformed URSS that frankly Drew positioned to be the real post USA hegemon as frankly Western Europe for 'plot reason' decide to create a weaker continental structure to bring the URSS in the fold.
Thing that frankly i openly say that was...let's see very difficult due to the URSS clearly dominate every organization and being an authoritarian state while western europe is formed by democracy that really are not keen to be just a notch above the Warsaw Pact nation, because frankly it's clear that the URSS will see the rest of the members that way or if lucky like OTL Finland.
While let's say a working relationship with the EEC and derivate treat the URSS with general kid glove and ignore a lot of things for business sake more or less like OTL treatment of Russia before the invasion of Ukraine, there will be serious limit to that and all members will want their independence.
Drew counteracted that there is nothing that stop western europe from forming a subregional pact to counter the URSS everybody know that once they get a foot in the door it will be too difficult to let them out
Thing that frankly i openly say that was...let's see very difficult due to the URSS clearly dominate every organization and being an authoritarian state while western europe is formed by democracy that really are not keen to be just a notch above the Warsaw Pact nation, because frankly it's clear that the URSS will see the rest of the members that way or if lucky like OTL Finland.
While let's say a working relationship with the EEC and derivate treat the URSS with general kid glove and ignore a lot of things for business sake more or less like OTL treatment of Russia before the invasion of Ukraine, there will be serious limit to that and all members will want their independence.
Drew counteracted that there is nothing that stop western europe from forming a subregional pact to counter the URSS everybody know that once they get a foot in the door it will be too difficult to let them out
The question is whether the region of the "Christian States of America" and the "United States of America" as seen in the Rummyhorror map would all be one country again. I can picture the CV hiding out in the Appalachian states and Indiana for a long time akin to the OTL Taliban in Afghanistan.
Difficult, the ITTL USA has gone through too much horror and strife to go back as before even in semblance and frankly if the CSA have access to nuclear weapon they can go the NK route and menace massive retaliation if invaded, frankly we can have a three/four way divided USA between the Pacific states, the CSA a rump USA and maybe an enlarged Texas.
I can see several states ending up like North Korea after the Decade of Tears. Unlike the "End of History" triumphalism of the 1990s/2000s, there were would be no efforts by the world's remaining states that could be called "liberal democracies" to even attempt a complete invasion and overthrow of the CSA (the last remnants likely being in Appalchia, Indiana, and parts of the Midwest), the Malan regime (the last remants likely being in the Orange Free State and Transvaal regions), and the Sanjay Gandhi regime (located in the north-central region of India). The presence of weapons of mass destruction in the arsenals of all of these states coupled with the sheer scale of resources and numbers for liberating areas would make a total overthrow akin to OTL Milosovic in Serbia or Saddam Hussein in Iraq highly implausible.
The only liberal democracies with various degree left are:
- the EEC members plus other european state like Sweden, Switzerland and Iceland
- Canada
- Japan
- Australia and New Zeland.
Europe will be occupied in keeping the URSS at bay while making business with her and at most will see North and Sub Sharian Africa as their main zone of interest with also the ME
Canada will be too occupied with the USA crisis and the rise and fall of the CSA and her consequence to even notice the existence of the rest of the world, hell it's very probable that Western Europe will send troops and humanitarian help to support Ottawa, not in great number but at least something
japan will look at the general mess and try to make the best out of it making business with everyone
Same for the ANZAC nation but i see some tech/trade/military agreement with western europe/the UK similar to OTL AUKUS
maybe there will be a new 'great game' in the former USA with various powers or bloc trying to extend their influence in the post civil war nations but in general they will have not neither the power or the will to export democracy. Said that, i doubt that western europe will accept any crazy dictatorship bent on genocide near her due to the possible consequence but if you behave and mind your business or are far from the eyes you are ok
- the EEC members plus other european state like Sweden, Switzerland and Iceland
- Canada
- Japan
- Australia and New Zeland.
Europe will be occupied in keeping the URSS at bay while making business with her and at most will see North and Sub Sharian Africa as their main zone of interest with also the ME
Canada will be too occupied with the USA crisis and the rise and fall of the CSA and her consequence to even notice the existence of the rest of the world, hell it's very probable that Western Europe will send troops and humanitarian help to support Ottawa, not in great number but at least something
japan will look at the general mess and try to make the best out of it making business with everyone
Same for the ANZAC nation but i see some tech/trade/military agreement with western europe/the UK similar to OTL AUKUS
maybe there will be a new 'great game' in the former USA with various powers or bloc trying to extend their influence in the post civil war nations but in general they will have not neither the power or the will to export democracy. Said that, i doubt that western europe will accept any crazy dictatorship bent on genocide near her due to the possible consequence but if you behave and mind your business or are far from the eyes you are ok
The first American Civil War played a key role in the development of the nationhood of my country, Canada:
Blood and Daring
Blood and Daring: How Canada Fought the American Civil War and Forged a Nation The book reads like a novel and tells the story of Canada’s engagement in the American Civil War through the len…
johnboyko.com
The post-CV USA will most likely be a dominant-party pseudo-democracy where the establishment is secular and opposed to pure capitalism but still right-wing.
Nice to see you back. What about the Pacific States of America, Texas, and the Northeast?
Has anyone seen the OTL 2018 film Vice? If so, how did they like its portrayal of Rumsfeld and Cheney?
The Pacific States of America and Texas can become functional democracies if they avoid being damaged too much.
Here's a great image of George Wallace's legendary TTL showing of Agnew on Point!:
Here are a couple of relatively new sources with info on Mao Yuanxin ("The Lesser Mao"). The Twitter thread is particularly chilling in illustrating how plausible Mao Yuanxin's rise to power could have been in some reality or other.
I have tried to contact him to ask questions. I have been unable to get a response.
We don't see what happens to Sanjay Gandhi's regime but I think it would be a great literary device if that last hideout of his regime was among North Sentinelese!:
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So currently, there is a spin-off TL on talkelections about Gumbo with many changes from the original with the biggest change being Ronald Reagan winning in 1976 against Wallace. It is currently at May 1979 as of this post. One thing to note is that it mentions of a new fascist movement in America in the 80s by Lyndon LaRouche emerging from fringe democrats in the latest post.
Not Newt Gingrich
Banned
Thanks for sharing! I am actually the author of this spinoff. I eventually plan on posting it on this forum as well, but I want to finish it over there first and refine it a bit before it gets up on this forum.So currently, there is a spin-off TL on talkelections about Gumbo with many changes from the original with the biggest change being Ronald Reagan winning in 1976 against Wallace. It is currently at May 1979 as of this post. One thing to note is that it mentions of a new fascist movement in America in the 80s by Lyndon LaRouche emerging from fringe democrats in the latest post.