"this" meaning that:I may possibly have done this ⬇️
a)"this" meaning that:
a) as author of Blunted Sickle, you've written on the overall topic of the thread, a Fall Gelb fail or b) you may have done something in a specific post above yours, like written into it what I mentioned in post #14 about a "smashing Allied victory in spring 1941" and the Wehrmacht being simultaneously 'sharp as a razor blade', but only 'durable as cotton candy'.
Both? It’s a bit of a monster, but the peanut gallery seem to like it."this" meaning that:
a) as author of Blunted Sickle, you've written on the overall topic of the thread, a Fall Gelb fail or b) you may have done something in a specific post above yours, like written into it what I mentioned in post #14 about a "smashing Allied victory in spring 1941" and the Wehrmacht being simultaneously 'sharp as a razor blade', but only 'durable as cotton candy'.
Thank you @pdf27 for responding! I love it when it is the person who I actually addressed the question provides the answer! I think it was a fairly current post in the sequel thread where it is spring or summer 1941, and Hitler is still alive, but a lot of German forces are cut off in central Belgium, so that seems like major Allied successes, pretty disastrous for the Germans, and a warand Nazi regime that probably cannot extend into 1943 or possibly even 1942.Both? It’s a bit of a monster, but the peanut gallery seem to like it.
I do also think the 1941 offensives wouldn't be sufficient to win against Germany as long as the Germans are only blunted and not cut off after a failed Fall Gelb. I don't think it would go as far as 1944, but whether the war ends in 42 or 43 is hard to say. There are things going for an Entente win, and things going against it compared to the OTL war:Thank you for acknowledging that the war may go on as late as 1944, and is not guaranteed to win with a smashing Allied victory in spring 1941, or an anti-Hitler coup in winter 1940-1941.
Such are the usual results posited in 'Sedan fails' PoDs, which seem to operate on the assumption that while the Wehrmacht was simultaneously 'sharp as a razor blade', it was only 'durable as cotton candy'.
So far I’ve made it to January 1942.Thank you @pdf27 for responding! I love it when it is the person who I actually addressed the question provides the answer! I think it was a fairly current post in the sequel thread where it is spring or summer 1941, and Hitler is still alive, but a lot of German forces are cut off in central Belgium, so that seems like major Allied successes, pretty disastrous for the Germans, and a warand Nazi regime that probably cannot extend into 1943 or possibly even 1942.
I would addI do also think the 1941 offensives wouldn't be sufficient to win against Germany as long as the Germans are only blunted and not cut off after a failed Fall Gelb. I don't think it would go as far as 1944, but whether the war ends in 42 or 43 is hard to say. There are things going for an Entente win, and things going against it compared to the OTL war:
Pro:
- Germany never accumulates a shitton of captured materiel like it did with France, the BEF and the USSR initially, they only have Czech and Polish stocks mainly, which are quite a bit smaller, which restricts the size the Wehrmacht can actually grow into for lack of equipment.
- Germany similarly never acquires as many additional ressources, workers and factories in occupied Europe to bolster the weapon's industry beyond what the pre-1940 Reich could achieve
- The Entente holds actual material superiority in the field earlier than the USSR/Wallies
- The Entente has a far smaller distance than the Wallies and the USSR to cover before entering Germany and taking its main production regions
- Germany doesn't get the kind of relative operational rest it had right after the fall of France, and right after Barbarossa when the Soviet military was heavily disorganised
- The combination of a more comparable airforce than the Soviets, and better geographical conditions than the Wallies allow an earlier depletion of the Luftwaffe
- For the same reasons, and due to French bomber production (though limited), the Entente's strategic bombing can have some effects earlier than OTL, though it will never hurt as hard as 1943+ bombing
- Entente logistics (eg no ocean to cross, more dense rail and road network than in the USSR, and not busted like in 1944 France) are far more favourable than those available to the Soviets and Wallies, so powerful offensives can be set up earlier and quicker
Cons:
- The Entente holds material superiority earlier, but it doesn't really grow to the same lopsided ratios as OTL
- German manpower, industry and ressources are not as depleted as in 1943-45
- The Entente may still be somewhat less effective than 1943-45 USSR and Wallies, which means they aren't finishing the war in just one year
Yeah, in fact to expand on the U-boot thing, the aspect I forgot to mention is that British supply wouldn't be disrupted by the loss of France (which sent materials and such) and the disruption by U-boots would be reduced. If we also add the effects of basically not being bombed (which disrupted some factories) and not having to build extra transport shipping to invade France and support a much larger war, the British can also devote far more ressources to the production required for a land army so the ramp up in 1940-42 will be faster.I would add
Pro:
- Limited U-boot activity in Atlantic (no bases in France); easier and safer trade with USA and other countries.
Cons:
- Possibly smaller US involvement before Pearl Harbor, exactly because limited activity of German submarines and much smaller German successes (Germany is considered less of a threat). OTOH it will not be so necessary for the Allies who migth be able to manage the situation themselves.
I am more worried about American public opinion. With Germany being lesser and somewhat confined threat the isolationists will have more arguments about USA staying neutral in conflict and let the Europeans settle it between themselves. American people will be less sympathetic and less willing to help the Allies in any way, instead of purely commercial transactions. Would Lend Lease Act be passed, e.g.?I would actually disagree with the con being a con for the following reasons:
- naval help is not particularly required anyway
- in terms of material help, US assistance would actually be somewhat higher than OTL because the ramp up of military production was abruptly slowed down by the loss of French financing. This was also a factor in a France Fights On scenario because FFO France can send its gold, but here it would be further reinforced by France keeping its metropolitan income to further fund US industrial buildup.
Less American Influence should also be seen as an Pro. Without Lend Lease the debt at the end of the war, would be lower. Also postwar the empires of France and England should be intact and both in an better shape to resist American attempts to become the dominant power. Also without the Fall of France, would the Manhatten Project been started?
With France still in the fight, Japan stays out of Indochina, which OTL caused the US to freeze Japanese assets and establish their oil and gasoline embargo, spurring Japan to plan for the attack on Pearl Harbor and their southern invasions.
and yes the German army is soft as cotton candy.
So you anticipate the Germans lasting that long (into 1942, maybe May or June?), but perhaps no longer?The Entente is actually in no rush. The original idea was to hit full strength in about 42.
The German war crimes during the Benelux and Northern France campaign ITTL might give the Entente some good PR in the US, and mitigate some of the isolationists' influence.I am more worried about American public opinion. With Germany being lesser and somewhat confined threat the isolationists will have more arguments about USA staying neutral in conflict and let the Europeans settle it between themselves. American people will be less sympathetic and less willing to help the Allies in any way, instead of purely commercial transactions. Would Lend Lease Act be passed, e.g.?
And with USA less involved, would Hitler declare war on USA after Pearl Harbor (if Japan really attacks, but I think it will happen)? Would Hitler invade USSR? Would USSR attack Hitler (IMO in 1942 at earliest).
In any case, Japan won't do anything until their last aircraft carriers are finished. Without them marching into Indochina, the US embargo won't come at least for a while. Even so, the war in China is a constant sucking wound for them, and sooner or later they will have to decide whether to pull back to Manchuria or risk going the "Southern Road" and thereby start a war with the colonial powers, with Britain and likely also France reinforcing their naval strength in the Far East.The German war crimes during the Benelux and Northern France campaign ITTL might give the Entente some good PR in the US, and mitigate some of the isolationists' influence.
For the extension of the war, Germany doesn't have the manpower and material to attack the USSR. Stalin might try something against Germany in 42.
Japon might try something in the Far East, but the Entente position is still far better than OTL.
And the US won't get involved directly unless attacked directly like OTL.
If you want Britain to have real economic troubles in WW1 you need Germany to win the Race to the Sea.
Coastal shipping was still a huge part of Britain's domestic transport task in 1914 and other forms of transport like rail could take up the slack until the 30s, some 80-100 ships a day passed through the Dover strait and took food directly up the Thames to the London docks. Admiral Bacon of the Dover Patrol stated that if this through Channel shipping was stopped 1/3 of London would have to be evacuated to where the people could be more easily fed.
Winning the Race to the Sea makes the French half of the Dover strait a dead zone totally covered by German guns and mines, with a defended shipping channel able to be used by the Germans. Beyond that through channel shipping would be subject to harassing gunfire (ineffective to be sure, but try telling your insurance company that) and aggressive mining from German light forces based in Dunkirk, Calais and Bolougne. The RN would have a huge task countering this threat, it would take up a large part of Britain's war effort, likely to the detriment of things like the Gallipoli campaign and the ultimate expansion of the BEF into 5 field armies.