European Taiwan
- Thread starter Archduke
- Start date
Have the Dutch collaborators and rebels win against the Spanish in Luzon and sue peace with the spanish, since the Qing offered Taiwan back to the Dutch, the Dutch will get Taiwan back from Qing.
Portuguese taiwan is a possibility without the union with Spain.Or have the Spanish triumph against the Dutch and Isla Hermosa becomes a province of the Spanish East Indies.
Gian
Banned
Or have the Spanish triumph against the Dutch and Isla Hermosa becomes a province of the Spanish East Indies.
Hey I know this may or may not be related, but that was actually the basis for my little map:
Hey I know this may or may not be related, but that was actually the basis for my little map:
Your map making talent is amazing
Hey I know this may or may not be related, but that was actually the basis for my little map:
What's the demographic make-up of this Formosa? Aboriginals? Aboriginal-Spanish mestizos? Chinese migrants? Filipino migrants? A little bit of everything?
Gian
Banned
I said that in one of my comments in the DeviantArt page that much of the population in Formosa today are largely Filipinos from Northern Luzon (more specifically Ilocanos, who are to Formosa what the Cebuano-speaking Visayans are to Mindanao), with the Chinese largely concentrated in the Pescadores (which were already settled by Chinese by around the 1600s), and the Aborigines (called cordilleros in my map-world) largely similar to the groups in the Philippine Cordillera (ie Ifugao, Igorots)
The biggest problem in that scenario is the POD occurs before the series of famine in Luzon happens which wiped the Kapampangans, Igorots and others in favor of Ilocanos and the Tagalogs.
Can you tell me more about the Qing offering Taiwan back to the Dutch?
You can look up that on this forums, some member pointed that out, i can't remember the exact thread.
But I think the Dutch will be content with Just Luzon in the North since it sits in the Malay-Ryukyu trade route and they would have strong (elite) support there.
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I actually think this is a possibility even with the Iberian Union still happening.
The Portuguese discovered Taiwan in 1544, being the first Europeans to visit the island. This was long before the Iberian Union. If the Portuguese had shown interest in colonizing the island, the Spanish would likely have offered no complaints, especially given that Taiwan was on the Portuguese side of the Tordesillas line (which, while far from absolute, was still a powerful negotiational device for the Portuguese). I'm not sure weather on not it would be feasable to have a Portuguese Taiwan before 1580 (the date when Philip II of Spain became Philip I of Portugal, beggining the union of the crowns), however, if colonization happens relatively early during the Unions tenure (somewhen during the reigns of Philip I/II, or maybe even in the early days of Philip II/III) Portugal can still gain undisputed sovereignty over the island, as it still retained quite a lot of autonomy for some time in colonial matters.
Now, unless we butterfly the Dutch away from existance (which I think can be done with a simple PoD set during the partition of the Habsburg Empire, but would cause massive butterflies), they will be a problem, and it's true that the Iberian Union dimished Portugal's capacity to fight back agaisnt their offensive. However, there were plenty of territories that the Portuguese managed to defend even during this period, including Timor and Flores in Southeast Asia and Macau, which quite close to Taiwan. Worst case scenario, the Dutch will have the opportunity to take over Taiwan in the 1620s. By then, the Portuguese will have had plenty of time to set up their presence on the island, and it's feasible that they resist, even with the increasingly neglecful attitude of the Spanish crown towards Portuguese issues.
With the Portuguese in control of Taiwan, they would be able to block the passage of Dutch ships to Japan. This will force the Tokugawa to continue the Nanban trade, even if they restrict it to Nagasaki and still ban christianity and mostly enforce Sakoku. They were pragmatic enough to realize that Japan needed to keep trading at least a little bit with the outside world, and, if they couldn't do it with the Dutch (who they prefered do to their more bussiness-like approach and not trying to spread their religion), they'll just have to stick up with the Portuguese.
It's fascinating to imagine what kind of society could emerge in Portuguese Taiwan, or Formosa, in this scenario. The Portuguese would send some European colonists to the island (certainly more than the Dutch), but their numbers wouldn't be very significant. They would probably try to supplant that with mixed-race settlers from several parts of Portuguese Asia. These populations were catholic, spoke creole languages, and were very loyal to the crown. Kristang from Malyasia, Topasses from Indonesia and maybe even some Portuguese Burghers from Sri Lanka would likely come to form a new Eurasian elite to rule over Taiwan. Now, as for where they'd get their workers from, that's another story. Importing slaves from Africa is obviously out of the question, and East Asians wouldn't allow for the enslavement of their own peoples, so I trust that Portuguese would realize that filling the colony with Chinese and Japanese slaves would lead to its demise... Well, actually I don't quite trust it, but we need it to happen for the sake of the scenario. Importing slaves from Malaysia and Indonesia would probably be doable, and the Portuguese would try it in the beggining. However, I'm unsure if China and Japan would allow for Portugal to keep a slaves colony that close to their territory. Also, this might lead to the mixed-race elite feeling a bit unconfortable, not being quite sure of what really separates them from those that are enslaved. I think it's most likely that the Portuguese would abandon the slavery option relatively soon and start looking for cheap paid labourers. The easiest place to get those would be China, that's where the Dutch got their cheap labourers IOTL after all... However, Portugal would probably recruit its Chinese labourers from the south of the country, near Macau, where they have a stronghold, so I think it's likely that Portuguese Formosa's Chinese community would be mostly Cantonese speaking.
Aboringinals would be converted to Catholicism and would also oviously form an important part of the island's population. Assuming the Portuguese stay in controlof Nagasaki, there will also likely be a fair amount of Japanese Christian refugees coming to Taiwan, including people from various social classes.
Also, we should naturaly expect a lot of miscenegation over the time.
In the end, I believe that Formosan culture would eventually come to resemble the Macanese one, add only a little more Japanese influence and maybe some elements from arboriginal culture. If they develop their own creole, I'd say it might sound similar to Papiaçam.
I think that case is more possible if n. Luzon remains muslim which requires a bangkusay victory.
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Well, we could go with that. Seems like a relatively easy thing to do. But I do not think it's necessary. If the Portuguese happen to grab Taiwan first, then there's not really much that the Spanish can do. Besides that, the island was not that valuable anyway. Sure, whoever controled it was in a privileged position to dominate trade with Japan, but what Spain really cared about was Chinese silver, and the Philippines already served as good enough base for that. I see no reason for the Spanish to go that much out of their way just to take Taiwan away from Portugal, especially during the early days of the Iberian Union, when the Spanish crown was actually quite keen on appeasing Portuguese commercial interests as a means to mantain their loyalty.
Northern luzon is not valuable to the spanish if Japan still goes sakoku, i think the spanish will ignore it in this scenario like Brunei..unless if they interfere in the galleon trade.
In this case the portuguese will retain taiwan even if they form a union.
Gian
Banned
I have to ask though, where's the link to it because I'm trying to find those historical references myself.
Actually Tagalog and Ilocano became the majority because the Spanish and Americans resettled regions 2 and 3 with Ilocanos and Tagalogs, there is said to be a series of famine and pestilence in Pampanga and Cagayan regions at that time, some of my sources have been taken down already, since I read them in the last decade.
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Did you save copies of these sources, at least? Or maybe find them in some library?
The Wikipedia already pointed out that the Spanish and Americans settled regions 2 and 3 with ilocanos and tagalogs in 18th to 20th centuries.
I have none regarding the famine, many of the sources have been put down now.