cheers for getting back to me, I have found the map and you were right about the timeframe I think: Link to post
Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread
- Thread starter carlton_bach
- Start date
My issue is more or less the following: What is the strength of the butterfly effect here. When thinking about the TL in places where I have no information from the author should I assume that things staid as IOTL or are they unpredictable or undefined. For example: we were recently told that the Russian northern fleet sortied into the Dutch West Indies and that the Germans ran ASW in the Denmark Strait. Now there are several things that are still undefined in the Arctic by 1908: the status of Greenland, Iceland, Spitsbergen is in flux. Personally, had I been in Russsian command I would have landed in Narvik and struck at Sweden. I tried to interview Knut Hamsun on the topic but, well.
An Inquiry into the Loss of Shch-213, Second Officer's statement, Dikson, 24 February 1946 [post canon]
For some moments we were completely deluged, as I say, and all this time I held my breath, and clung to the bolt. When I could stand it no longer I raised myself upon my knees, still keeping hold with my hands, and thus got my head clear. Presently our little boat gave herself a shake, just as a dog does in coming out of the water, and thus rid herself, in some measure, of the seas. I was now trying to get the better of the stupor that had come over me, and to collect my senses so as to see what was to be done, when I felt somebody grasp my arm. It was my elder brother, and my heart leaped for joy, for I had made sure that he was overboard—but the next moment all this joy was turned into horror—for he put his mouth close to my ear, and screamed out the word 'Moskoe-ström!'
[A Letter Purloined]
For some moments we were completely deluged, as I say, and all this time I held my breath, and clung to the bolt. When I could stand it no longer I raised myself upon my knees, still keeping hold with my hands, and thus got my head clear. Presently our little boat gave herself a shake, just as a dog does in coming out of the water, and thus rid herself, in some measure, of the seas. I was now trying to get the better of the stupor that had come over me, and to collect my senses so as to see what was to be done, when I felt somebody grasp my arm. It was my elder brother, and my heart leaped for joy, for I had made sure that he was overboard—but the next moment all this joy was turned into horror—for he put his mouth close to my ear, and screamed out the word 'Moskoe-ström!'
[A Letter Purloined]
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Which one? Sneaking around the Baltic looks somewhat suspicious, but sneaking around the Arctic is less so.
JamesG
Donor
I take it all back. I've been watching the Olympic shooting events, and saying that they're like watching paint dry is honestly giving them too much credit. At least with that you end up with a painted wall. It's like watching an interstellar vacuum. It's the ultimate expression of nothingness in Olympic form.
Games of the XI Olympiad, 4 x 100m Women's Relay, 9 August 1936 [post canon]
Meter for meter the German advances on Holland and Canada in the outer lanes, first exchange: Germany takes the lead, second exchange: she flies away, increases the distance, six eight ten meters ahead, the German victory is beyond dispute, the final handover due, exchange: GERMANY DROPS THE BATON ! The way is free for America.
August von Mackensen raised his white gloved hands and stared into the programme.
Eventually, through misty eyes, his vision recovered.
Wilma Rudolph -- now here was a perfectly good German name. Perhaps there was hope.
Meter for meter the German advances on Holland and Canada in the outer lanes, first exchange: Germany takes the lead, second exchange: she flies away, increases the distance, six eight ten meters ahead, the German victory is beyond dispute, the final handover due, exchange: GERMANY DROPS THE BATON ! The way is free for America.
August von Mackensen raised his white gloved hands and stared into the programme.
Eventually, through misty eyes, his vision recovered.
Wilma Rudolph -- now here was a perfectly good German name. Perhaps there was hope.
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1936?? According to Wiki, Wilma Rudoplh would not be born for nearly four more years, in 1940??
Did you mean 1956?
EDIT: But then Mackensen would be 106 years old, so that doesn't work either. What's going on??
Ive been meaning to ask this for a while: what is Post-Canon? I assume you're allowed to post stories by Carlton but how should I place your stories within the context of the story? Are they things you think my be happening? Are they actual stories from the TL? Or something else entirely I'm completely misunderstanding?
These postings of mine, post canon or ex canon, are inspired by the timeline but they serve only at Carlton's pleasure or rather tolerance. That is, all their merit is his, their flaws are mine. They happen, I imagine, in the shadows, the nooks and crannies of the timeline. Yet I also try, in a more oblique way than others, to make comments or ask questions in regard to the prime timeline.
I'd appreciate if Google could properly scan Fraktur:
Scripts_in_Europe_(1901).jpg
They are, after all, a great nation, a very great nation.
Scripts_in_Europe_(1901).jpg
They are, after all, a great nation, a very great nation.
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got a question which german dialect is dominant now in germany, is more prussian?
Also whats going to happen to German australisia the pacific islands and papua new guinea?
Have poles started to become more intergrated i.e. more upper class poles, generals, officers and admin.
Also whats going to happen to German australisia the pacific islands and papua new guinea?
Have poles started to become more intergrated i.e. more upper class poles, generals, officers and admin.
The weekend question... I'll try my best
I'll have to think this through in detaiol because it is not an easy question at this point, but in broad terms I expect New Guinea to become independent while the islands may well retain some kind of protectorate or overseas territory status. Colonialism will end, and Germany will divest itself of its holdings more easily than Britain or France. So there is not going to be a big fight to keep these places (there will be violence in Africa).
German colonial rule is generally not good for New Guinea or the Pacific. The metropole is distracted and distant, infrastructure investment underwhelming, and economic development limited to resource extraction until the 1960s, when tourism begins to be a thing. There are a few scattered prestige projects like the navy base at Tulagi, the aerodromes at Saipan and Apia, the phosphate terminal at Nauru or the Hochlandbahn, but on the whole development depends on access to the sea. Small islands do all right, though underfunded German colonial rule encourages the development of extralegal power structures that will serve the places poorly in the future. New Guinea remains stuck in premodern economic and social structures that don't really change until the twenty-first century.
Basically, if you are a Prussian of Polish ancestry, the act of considering yourself a Pole defines you as non-integrated. If you are integrated, you are not a Pole. there are hundreds of thousands of Germans with names like Kowalski and Nimmersein, officers from senior noble families and intellectuals of high renown whose ancestors spoke and felt Polish. They are not considered Poles.
There are equally men in Prussia who proudly speak Polish, embrace their identity and the flag. People like Prince Radziwill, wealthy and powerful, and far more people in villages and towns throughout Silesia and West Prussia. These people are not integrated and they consider themselves Poles. they are socially a breed apart, and though there are a few wealthy and powerful people among them, their standing in German society is tenuous.
A lot of these people accepted the offer the new Polish state made of granting them citizenship. Many emigrated to a place friendlier to their language and culture. 'Prussian Polish' identity is gradually declining into a pride of ancestry.
That is kinda hard to answer. The dominant dialect is technically hochdeutsch, a form of elocution that is not natively spoken anywhere, but cultivated among the middle classes. Hochdeutsch allows for a variety of accents, and here, the northeastern and northern variants are the most prestigious (so yes, more Prussian in that Brandenburger accent is more prevalent and raises no eyebrows). Outright dialect, though, is a more complicated issue. There is more of it around without the massive impact of WWII, but it is less accepted in polite company. There are differences here, with some dialects considered acceptable higher up the social scale than others. Basically, lower-class people are extected to be speaking local dialect. People in customer-facing jobs must understand Hochdeutsch, and the educated (most whitecollar workers and graduates) are supposed to speak it. A rolling Baltic drawl or the twang of Hamburg Missingsch is still something people will accept as charming local colour. Bavarian's slow umlaut-ing less so, and the softened consonants of Saxon are right out. As is even the slightest hint of a Polish accent, by the way.
I'll have to think this through in detaiol because it is not an easy question at this point, but in broad terms I expect New Guinea to become independent while the islands may well retain some kind of protectorate or overseas territory status. Colonialism will end, and Germany will divest itself of its holdings more easily than Britain or France. So there is not going to be a big fight to keep these places (there will be violence in Africa).
German colonial rule is generally not good for New Guinea or the Pacific. The metropole is distracted and distant, infrastructure investment underwhelming, and economic development limited to resource extraction until the 1960s, when tourism begins to be a thing. There are a few scattered prestige projects like the navy base at Tulagi, the aerodromes at Saipan and Apia, the phosphate terminal at Nauru or the Hochlandbahn, but on the whole development depends on access to the sea. Small islands do all right, though underfunded German colonial rule encourages the development of extralegal power structures that will serve the places poorly in the future. New Guinea remains stuck in premodern economic and social structures that don't really change until the twenty-first century.
The answer to that is a resounding no. But not because of anti-Polish racism.
Basically, if you are a Prussian of Polish ancestry, the act of considering yourself a Pole defines you as non-integrated. If you are integrated, you are not a Pole. there are hundreds of thousands of Germans with names like Kowalski and Nimmersein, officers from senior noble families and intellectuals of high renown whose ancestors spoke and felt Polish. They are not considered Poles.
There are equally men in Prussia who proudly speak Polish, embrace their identity and the flag. People like Prince Radziwill, wealthy and powerful, and far more people in villages and towns throughout Silesia and West Prussia. These people are not integrated and they consider themselves Poles. they are socially a breed apart, and though there are a few wealthy and powerful people among them, their standing in German society is tenuous.
A lot of these people accepted the offer the new Polish state made of granting them citizenship. Many emigrated to a place friendlier to their language and culture. 'Prussian Polish' identity is gradually declining into a pride of ancestry.
The exception is of course Austrian, because it has it's own prestige centre I expect.
The main dialect in pre-Napoleon kingdom of Prussia was Low German, which is a dialect closer related to Dutch than standard German, through in Silesia they spoke a dialect closer related standard German. I was seeing local tv from Berlin some years ago when I visited and some of the people spoke a local dialect, and while pretty standard in vocabulary their pronouncement sounded like a mix of Dutch and a less mumbling version of Danish.
so what is intergration here then? What does a intergrates prussian pole look like compared to a german? Also at what point did most prussian poles become intergrated?
Can i ask in relation to fashion/ i dunno does germany various royalty and officer corps wear their military uniform in public and like all the time. IE wilheim always in military uniform or has society become less militarised?
what is the Bavarian relation like now with germany? Is it akin to what Bavaria has with actual germany or are they still kinda in their own world? Do bavarians still annoy the prussians?
i think Jurgen would know but can anyone tell me in what is the state of the Nordic states navies and merchant fleets. In this TL is sweden bigger in both due to mitteleuropa? Will sweden merchant navy come to dominate Norway and Denmark? Also how are Denmark and Norway merchant fleets effected by stronger sweden and German Mare nostrum.
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It's an ongoing process. In 1100, almost nobody in the territories of prussia spoke German. By 1500, almost the entire upper class did, except in the areas still belonging to thev Polish kingdom. By 1900, Polish and Sorbian had been reduced to pockets, Wendish was gone. This just continues.
Identities are not immutable, not even in the twentieth century, and the deliberate policy of the Prussian state is to 'denationalise' the Polish minority. Every Prussian of Polish ancestry who speaks German at home is at that point effectively a German. Think of the 'Ruhrpolen'ITTL. After 1918, they were offered the option of moving to Poland and getting citizenship, or staying and becoming German. Hundreds of thousands of them stayed. Pulaski is a normal German name in the Ruhrpott now. THese people still know thery come from polish ancestprs of you ask them, but they are to all intents and purposes Germans and they feel German. That is how this works.
This, by the way, is in no way a 'left' project. Integration into German society was possible even at the highest levels of the SS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odilo_Globocnik
It declines, but until the 1950s, 'regimentals' are de rigueur for the imperial family and gentlemen in active service. Reserve officers wear uniform to court and formal occasions. Reserve NCOs tend to wear it on holidays. The ghabit declines, but never fully disappears, and the emperor and crown prince wear uniform in public even into the 2020s more often than not.
Annoying the Saupreißn is a national sport in Bavaria, but - generally, Bavaria is well intgrated and feels German. A somewhat better kind of German, understand, but fully German. French hopes for Bavarian separatism during the Konservative Revolution proved pipe dreams.
Good question - no idea. I'll have to do some research.
I've just read the timeline and it's a terrific story. A German New Guinea creates major butterflies if it never gets merged with Australian Papua. Perhaps Australia will keep Papua much longer, possibly even making it a state.