Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread

[carlton_bach]

Got 2 questions was the swedish air raid there greatest moment of the war or have they had any greater achievements. Secondly what is the home front and military situation at the front for sweden like?

Just briefly: the Swedish home front is politically charged in that many people feel it is not the proper use of Swedish resources to send young men to die for Finland. They look to peaceful, more prosperous neutral Norway as an example of what could be. the Russian government spent significant effort on supporting this idea, and its policy during the first year of the war was to not make any demands on Sweden, segregate Swedish POWs for better treatment, and publicly deplore that the country had to suffer for its unwise alliance with Germany and the territorial greed of Finland. It is a relevant minority opinion especially among conservatives.

As to the distinctions of Swedish forces, the raid on Kronstadt is their most newsworthy achievement, but between the battle of Muurman, the Baltic naval war, and the Kola front there was plenty of opportunity for them to shine. And lose another generation of bright young men.

 

[carlton_bach]

Out of curiosity, do you envision the Livonians surviving ITTL or will they meet the same fate as OTL, a slow extinction with the language dying in 2013.

Protection of minority languages is a firm government policy eerywhere german is a minority language, so I expect Livonian will survive, but I don't think it will amount to much. something like Sorbian in Germany IOTL. The Germans call the place Livland because of the Teutonic Order province and princedom, not because of any association with the ethnicity.

 

[carlton_bach]

I think it would be make more sense if the German/Scandinavian names instead of Latin names were used. Even in OTL have been some attempts for Latvia and Estonia to get their English names changed to Letland and Estland, while English is less important in this timeline and as such the locals would care less about it, on the other hand German is in a much stronger position.

that is an interesting idea. Note that politically, due to the mid-century rift between Britain/Germany and USA/France means there is even less of one English in this setting, though. I envision US usage in many politically charged contexts would differ significantly from Britsh/Empire usage. Originally, i figured the British would call it Livonia and the Americans Estonia, but Livonia really is a German oddity (nonstzandard even in German) so maybe we could see Americans calling it Estonia (l'Estonie) and the Brits Estland.

 

[Jürgen]

Protection of minority languages is a firm government policy eerywhere german is a minority language, so I expect Livonian will survive, but I don't think it will amount to much. something like Sorbian in Germany IOTL. The Germans call the place Livland because of the Teutonic Order province and princedom, not because of any association with the ethnicity.

There’s also another aspect, I’m not really sure that there’s a real difference between Estonians and Livonians, Livonians mostly seems like Finnish/Estonian speakers who lives in Latvian territory (including coastal Courland). The distiction between the two groups mostly seems that because Livonians lived as minority in Latvian majority areas, they didn’t take part in the Estonian language standardization (which was based on the Tallinn dialect to my knowledge).

 

[haider najib]

Wait livonians were a people and had a language i thought that was a fancy word for latvians.

So what are the baltic states like how dominant are the german balts? Will they remain dominant to current time and is there a policy of germanisation?

 

[carlton_bach]

Wait livonians were a people and had a language i thought that was a fancy word for latvians.

I don't know how different they are linguistically from their neighbours, but there is a distinct historical identity to the Livs.

So what are the baltic states like how dominant are the german balts? Will they remain dominant to current time and is there a policy of germanisation?

So, number one is: pretty much very. The birth defect of the new states Germany carved out in the Baltic is that a dominant minority is linguistically and culturally distinct from the majority (German speakers in Estland and Lettland, Swedish speakers in Finland). It changes as the national identity increasingly is mediated through national language, and by the 1970s all Baltendeutsche will be fluent speakers of Estonian or Latvian, no matter what they speak at home. but in both countries entering a boardroom, a corner office, professor's study or judge's chambers, you expect to meet someone with a German name more often than not. There are Estonians and Letts in these positions, but just as with WASPs in the USA, the stereotype of the powerful is someone German. Wealth, especially mediated through real estate ownership, is still concentrated heavily in German families and with that comes access to education and careers.

This will not stay the same, obviously, but the German sphere is a conservative kind of place and the dead hand of Berlin is holding back any thought of land reform or redistributive justice. The states are opening up higher education, requiring language skills and raising inheritance tax, but there's only so much that will do.

There are no Germanisation policies. Not that there weren't unwise ideas mooted in the days of the Konservative Revolution, but the Baltendeutsche aren't that powerful. They are also not entirely trusted by Berlin due to the strong loyalty they showed the Czar. The historical tragedy of 'Baltendeutsche Treue' is celebrated in novels and movies ITTL. They must content themselves with being the dominant class of a nation that is not really theirs.

 

[Jürgen]

I don't know how different they are linguistically from their neighbours, but there is a distinct historical identity to the Livs.

So, number one is: pretty much very. The birth defect of the new states Germany carved out in the Baltic is that a dominant minority is linguistically and culturally distinct from the majority (German speakers in Estland and Lettland, Swedish speakers in Finland). It changes as the national identity increasingly is mediated through national language, and by the 1970s all Baltendeutsche will be fluent speakers of Estonian or Latvian, no matter what they speak at home. but in both countries entering a boardroom, a corner office, professor's study or judge's chambers, you expect to meet someone with a German name more often than not. There are Estonians and Letts in these positions, but just as with WASPs in the USA, the stereotype of the powerful is someone German. Wealth, especially mediated through real estate ownership, is still concentrated heavily in German families and with that comes access to education and careers.

This will not stay the same, obviously, but the German sphere is a conservative kind of place and the dead hand of Berlin is holding back any thought of land reform or redistributive justice. The states are opening up higher education, requiring language skills and raising inheritance tax, but there's only so much that will do.

There are no Germanisation policies. Not that there weren't unwise ideas mooted in the days of the Konservative Revolution, but the Baltendeutsche aren't that powerful. They are also not entirely trusted by Berlin due to the strong loyalty they showed the Czar. The historical tragedy of 'Baltendeutsche Treue' is celebrated in novels and movies ITTL. They must content themselves with being the dominant class of a nation that is not really theirs.

I think we also have to make a distinction between Estland and Lettland, Estonia had far fewer Germans and was much connected to Sweden and Finland (including having a small Swedish minority), I think Germans would not disappear but be a far less important minority in Estland than in Lettland.

Lettland on the other hand have some other elements, they have far more Germans and Jews, Riga is also a far more important port than Tallinn and had a large German population. I could see Riga keeping a significant German and Yiddish speaking minorities. In fact Riga with most Russians moving out and the German population keeping their stronger social position we could easily see Riga end up being split 50/50 between Latvians and Germans/Jews.

 

[Stendhal]

It can't be Emperor Wilhelm kisses Snow White Baltic into Nationhood -- OTL phenomena like the Latvian Rifles' adherence to the Bolshevik cause need integration too.

 

[yboxman]

It can't be Emperor Wilhelm kisses Snow White Baltic into Nationhood -- OTL phenomena like the Latvian Rifles' adherence to the Bolshevik cause need integration too.

But there is no Bolshevik cause TTL. Or rather it isn't wedded to a Russo-centricrival empire. Given that Reds have a choice between continued russification and murderous supression by an integralist Russia, or the chance to operate within a protectorate of the German Reich in which socialists (who never broke off from Communists TTL) have a considerably stronger presence than in the Baltics I am pretty sure Baltic Reds will be even morepro-German than Baltic Whites. Of course, once theKonservative revolution kicks off, you might find an alliance of discontent between German and Balt (and Pole. and Ruthenian) socialists.

 

[carlton_bach]

It can't be Emperor Wilhelm kisses Snow White Baltic into Nationhood -- OTL phenomena like the Latvian Rifles' adherence to the Bolshevik cause need integration too.

It's much more a matter of German government holds its nose to ally with Baltic nationalists because they needed every fighting man they could find. It's not like even Wilhelm necessarily wanted to create new nations. It's just that the alternative was too expensive.

 

[Stendhal]

Got a questions was the Swedish air raid there greatest moment of the war or have they had any greater achievements.

If Linus Torvalds' parents could be prevented meeting, I should be grateful: for my profession would not have turned into a travesty.

 

[aldonius]

If Linus Torvalds' parents could be prevented meeting, I should be grateful: for my profession would not have turned into a travesty.

... OK I have to ask, is it Linux, Git, or something else that's got you down?

 

[Stendhal]

Subversion --

Enjoy Guy Fawkes Night all.

 

[haider najib]

with no ww1 how is germany relationship with the us like also what about german americans? Do they still get culturally wiped out like otl or do they still exist?

 

[carlton_bach]

with no ww1 how is germany relationship with the us like also what about german americans? Do they still get culturally wiped out like otl or do they still exist?

German Americans are a big voting bloc, and as well accepted and integrated as Irish Americans are IOTL. Large parts of the country have active cultural associations, there are German language newspapers and radio and TV stations (though not very many any more because the USA had its nativist moment early in the century anyway) and cultural and personal contacts are close. See upthread 'Der Onkel aus Amerika'. (https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ntinuation-thread.448981/page-7#post-17683719)

Political relations were long feraught because of Germany's close association with Britain and the USA's with France, but Berlin was always careful not to antagonise washington because they felt they needed America as a supplier of last resort in the event of a war. As a result, Germany was never mentally classed as an 'enemy country' the way Britain and especially Japan were.

Economically, the countries are linked by ties of foreign investment (US bankers own significant chunks of German debt and industry, German companies have strong US subsidiaries) and thriving trade. Culturally, relations are characterised best as a wary sense of uncomprehending mutual admiration. Both Germans and Americans see much in the other country that impresses them, but they rarely really understand what is going on and it just feels so - strange.

 

[Oda]

Speaking of Germany does the SPD liberalised and shift from being socialist to social democratic just like OTL or are they still hoping or a revolution from the TL it looks like they liberalised

 

[carlton_bach]

Speaking of Germany does the SPD liberalised and shift from being socialist to social democratic just like OTL or are they still hoping or a revolution from the TL it looks like they liberalised

The SPD is a big tent party and, like Zentrum, encompasses multitudes. It has room for revolutionary Marxists until well into the 1960s, and its vision of socialism is never formally domesticated the way the Cold War forced IOTL, but in practical terms, the SPD becomes 'staatstragend' with the schism of 1908 and effectively acts as a status quo party from then on. the big debate is no longer between Bernstein and Liebknecht but increasingly about how big the increments of change get to be and how much Socialism is needed.

 

[haider najib]

So when german politicians and the various monarchies go to the usa do they go to the midwest usa to meet german americans? Is it a public event or more go to a cultural centre etc

 

[Jito]

So when german politicians and the various monarchies go to the usa do they do midwest usa to meet german americans? Is it a public event or more go to a cultural centre etc

Probably Washington D.C., Philadelphia, New York, Chicago circuit, along with the odd stop-off in Buffalo, Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Saint Louis. Big throngs of German and Jewish Americans, maybe protests by Polish Americans depending on how tensions are back home? When the Emperor comes there's going to be weirdo royal watchers too like OTL with the Windsors.

 

[carlton_bach]

So when german politicians and the various monarchies go to the usa do they go to the midwest usa to meet german americans? Is it a public event or more go to a cultural centre etc

Depends. Wilhelm will never visit the USA again, his idea of a modern monarchy has shackled him to his desk. His wife will, several times, but she has little love for doing 'political' things and won't call on anyone just because it will look good in the press. Prince Albert will visit German American associations and large Midwestern cities several times, for exactly those reasons, though he dislikes doing that.

Come time, German politicians will more and more routinely visit the States and this will eventually turn into a kind of mayors' circuit, with 'twinned' towns calling on each other and photo ops generated for both sides. High level visits of state will pretty much always be limited to the east Coast or just DC, but when a member of the imperial family visits Milwaukee or St Louis, it's a big deal and there will be parades, big dinners and endless rounds of handshakes. This is a world where royal families are still politically significant, and though the USA is proudly a republic, it has its share of admirers of all crowned heads.