Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread

[Stendhal]

The Enugu Coal Company, The Eastern Region, 31 July 1916 [post canon]

Captain! What brings you ashore ?

The M/s you typed for me is back from the publishers. We shall title it "The Niger and The Narcissus".

It sounds bloody racist.

Racist, me ? Heart of Darkness, how can you say such a thing ?

And I wish you would not call me that.

 

[carlton_bach]

I just had a couple of very good questions from johnharry, so I suppose I had best consider that fate's kick in the butt. My book manuscript is out the door, so no more excuses to revive the timeline:

1. What uniforms would the Germans and Russians wear during their 1944 war? Does the German Army keep the Stahlhelm? How similar is Russian gear to that of the Soviets? What about Mitteleuropa states, has the "Prussian/Wehrmacht" style spread to them in terms of doctrine and aspects of uniform?

Right, the German tradition is going to be effectively unbroken and buoyed by victpry, so the uniform design will be in many ways more 'Prussian' than IOTL. There will, however, be a strong undercurrent of frugality and simplicity that IOTL did not share, a sense of 'mehr sein als scheinen'. No shiny collar tabs and towering peaked caps, no scary and ominous all-black, and no more shiny cuirasses and gold-braided 'regimentals'. Generally, the post-1908 army will have a relativel weimarish appearance and keep it well into the 40s, when the impact of the next war creates a more technology-focused image. Generally, the German look is going to be:

1908-1940s: tunics and straight trousers in 'feldblau' (dirty grey) with large pockets, turned-down collars, soft-top peaked caps, tall boots (grudgingly giving way to laced ankle boots as time progresses) and grey wool greatcoats. Parade togs are single-breasted tunics with stiff collars, cut infamously tight.

1950s-1980s: camouflage battle dress with wide trousers, short, high-waisted jackets and long top-layer protective wear (greatcoats, but also parkas or ponchos), soft-top caps (tech branch forage caps are favoured) and laced boots. Parade dress still features riding trousers, tall boots and the classic Prussian blue tunic, though cut in a more flattering modern fashion with lapels. Peaked caps for officers.

All armies of the immediate German bloc copy the style to some extent or other. Austria-Hungary cultivates its own, but it has many institutional similarities (and better boots).

The helmet of the German army is not the classic stahlhelm. There are two types, the Sturmhaube, which is riffed off the Pickelhaube and is similar in weight to the French Adrian, and the pionierhelm, which is similar to the IOTL's Stahlhelm. Both designs continue to be improved, and both have adherents through the force, but typically the heavier design is given to trops that don't march much (heavy artillery, anti-air, engineers) while the lighter kind is given to infantry and armour. Soldiers have individual preferences and swap. only after the second war does the army fully switch to the 'heavy' model.

As to the Russians, they are institutionally very different. The field gear is subject to similar constraints (the need to produce large amounts on a strained industrial base), but that is the extent of it. Russian soldiers will be seen in blouses and wide trousers, many varieties of boot, and extremely generous greatcoats. After a brief flirtation with the bogatyrka, the army retuirned to the classic fur cap. Where that cannot be supplied, peaked caps are favoured. But for parade, the Russian style is consciously ethnic, colourful and bright, even extravagant. Colonial, you might say. More Bastille Day than Red Square.

that is one

 

[Athelstane]

This is the Carlton Bach content I come here for.

 

[carlton_bach]

2. How will Tanganyika develop; will it be a prosperous state overall by the modern age?

No. It is an African colony, with all the racism, oppression, exploitation and mismanagement that entails. It will eventually become an independent state , though economically still toed to Germany to a great extent, and its fate will be better than that of war-torn Mocambique, white-rule Rhodesia and Bechuanaland, and the ever misfortunate Congo, so its people do not feel utterly despondent. But they are worse off than the people of Kenya or Zanzibar (where many educated Tanganyikans migrate for jobs). At independence (which is achieved without the same level of bloodshed seen in neighbouring colonies largely because, well, half the Großer Generalstab couldn't find Daressalaam on a map and the electorate largely wasn't invested in the idea of overseas Empire the way the Brits or French were), most of the country was rural, underdeveloped, and poor. This was slow to change, and desperate policies of entry-level industrialisation and import substitution did not improve things much. By 2020 ITTL Tanganyika has some impressive cities and locally important industries, but it is a mostly agricultural country whose economy suffers from underemployment, inefficiencies, inadequate infrastructure and endemic corruption. It hemorrhages educated citizens for jobs in Europe and East Asia. People don't starve to death, but it's just barely scratching the bottom of what we'd consider a middle-income country.

 

[carlton_bach]

3. I saw earlier German space program being extensive mentioned, how extensive compared with OTL NASA?

There is simply no comparison. Nothing ITTL can come close to matching NASA or the Soviet space programme. France, Britain, Germany, the United States, and later Japan, China and Russia will develop the capacity for manned spaceflight. Space exploration is pursued through unmanned prestige missions, and being the first 'on Venus/Mars/Io/Europa/etc' is a matter of national pride, but activities are mostly limited to earth orbit and much of it is military, aimed at the capacity to neutralise enemy satellites and destroy incoming ballistic missiles.

 

[carlton_bach]

4. How much German influence does the Chinese army have, did it use German advisers?

German influence is significant, but not dominant. the Chinese government is allied with Germany in the 1907-08 war with Russia and shares an interest in controlling that monster ever after, so both sides are invested in each other, but Beijing also knows that it must never allow any one Western power too much influence. So German advisers and weapons are welcome - more so than those of Britain and France because Germany has no territorial amibitions in China (it could afford to pursue). But the army always also invites french, Japanese, British and especially US officers to teach them. There is no exclusive relationship like the Germans have with the Ottoman Empire.

there is a long-standing cadet programme that invites Chinese officers to Lichtenfelde and Kassel, and many officer exchanges. Chinese officer candidates must master English, French and German in order to qualify. And Germany got lucky in its steadfast adherence to the 'legitimate' central government over some of the 'warlords' (often alternative claimants) that the French, British and Japanese supported locally. Bejing won. Had it not, Chinese-German relations might have gone very differently.

The fact that China feels it owes Germany a historic debt of gratitude is hugely important come the 2000s.

 

[Deleted member 90563]

Do the schlagende Verbindungen remain popular for longer with certain students?

 

[Jürgen]

3. I saw earlier German space program being extensive mentioned, how extensive compared with OTL NASA?

There is simply no comparison. Nothing ITTL can come close to matching NASA or the Soviet space programme. France, Britain, Germany, the United States, and later Japan, China and Russia will develop the capacity for manned spaceflight. Space exploration is pursued through unmanned prestige missions, and being the first 'on Venus/Mars/Io/Europa/etc' is a matter of national pride, but activities are mostly limited to earth orbit and much of it is military, aimed at the capacity to neutralise enemy satellites and destroy incoming ballistic missiles.

A slower space race with more actors and greater competition may be worse in the short term, but in the long term it may come ahead of OTL.

 

[carlton_bach]

Do the schlagende Verbindungen remain popular for longer with certain students?

Hell yes. Some traditional university departments are practically owned by them. This largely depends on how close to the old Prussian ways they are, though. In law and public administration in Göttingen, practically every professor and lecturer is an 'Alter Herr' and most students either join the Burschenschaften or want to. in particle physics in Freiburg or Indian languages in Hamburg, they are odd birds, but they are around.

 

[De von Of]

Hell yes. Some traditional university departments are practically owned by them. This largely depends on how close to the old Prussian ways they are, though. In law and public administration in Göttingen, practically every professor and lecturer is an 'Alter Herr' and most students either join the Burschenschaften or want to. in particle physics in Freiburg or Indian languages in Hamburg, they are odd birds, but they are around.

What's Austrian politics like? In OTL the German speaking part, before WW1, and especially after it, was spolitically divided between three camps that had a mutual origin in populist opposition to the Liberal dominance of the post-ausgleich years, the Social Democrats, the populist-conservatives of the CS and the German nationalists.

How does this trifecta develop and what's the politics like in the non-German parts?

Edit: How did the franchise develop in Austria? IOTL 1907 saw the reform towards universal male suffrage. This reform was pushed by Franz Josef, who thought that raising the franchise would change Austrian politics from one based on ethnic conflict to one based on class conflict, which he saw as preferable for the stability of the state and his own power (this didn't work out). Meanwhile, the reform was harshly opposed by the arch-reactionary Franz Ferdinand, who however didn't get his way.

With the war happening any reform would be put off and you wrote ways back that FF was gaining more influence over governance during the war. If FF has any real influence he would almost certainly sabotage that reform and it would certainly never pass during his reign proper.

 

[carlton_bach]

Continuing:
5. How are German internationale relations into South America, given OTL tie, while having to put into account the monroe doctrine.

Generally speaking good. Before the war, there was a brief period when German politicians considered the possibility of getting a foot in the door of 'informal Empire', but the economic realities put paid to that soon enough. As a resulrt, German companies are considered 'safe' to do business with for the smaller states in a way US, British of French ones aren't.
Germany has a good reputation in the region. There is a large and proud emigrant community (many came later than the US German Ameriocans and have a less fraught relationship with Bismarck's Reich) active in politics and business. German products are popular, and - with the paper mark at favourable exchange rates and the country needing raw material imports - affordable. German compaies are happy to invest in the local economy, and their expertise is valued. They are not as financially potent as US or British competitors, but welcome.

Many governments also enjoy close and cordial relations with Berlin. While they are and remain nominally democratic, their leaders appreciate the German style of a strong central executive. A certain convergence of methods ion things like policing, administration, public health and education is sometimes noticeable, especially in the Southern Cone.

In German popular culture, South American adventure stories occupy a niche that is increasingly open as the 'frontier' genre of Karl May recedes into history. The Amazon basin, the Andes (from which the genre of Kordillerenoper gets its name) and the Atacama desert feature as wild and lawless areas where savage natives and implausibly deadly wildlife oppose the civilising hand of the (German) emigrant. Man-eating warrior ants, giant octopi and ancient demons populate this imaginary landscape. German scholars also contribute notably to the study of Precolumbian civilisations, deciphering Mayan glyphs from the 1960s onwards and leading excavations. This, too, is an important genre of popular science, and it gives rise to a subset of 'South American' mystic, cosmic spirituality.

 

[carlton_bach]

6. Will modern day Germany have similarities with OTL Nordic economies given the fact all of it derives to the Bismarkian principles?

In some ways, yes. There will be another high water mark of Socialist policy during which generous welfare systems and a system of corporate co-governance is implemented. Public Daseinsvorsorge matters to all German governments, so no matter who is in power, there will be public schools, hospitals, pools, sports facilities, child care and nice parks. But Germany is unlike Scandinavia in several important ways. The system always has to take account of a second large interest group, the petit bourgeois (and up= home- and business owners. they suffered heavily during the war, but as a group are opposed to 'welfare' because that is for 'poor people'. They vote conservative, not SPD, and the way the state supports them is hidden, more surreptitious. As a result, there is no similar level of universal support for public generosity. Even when it can afford it, Germany does not believe it can. Neither is there an equivalent of the 'public right to natural resources. Land in Germany is overwhelmingly private.

 

[carlton_bach]

What's Austrian politics like? In OTL the German speaking part, before WW1, and especially after it, was spolitically divided between three camps that had a mutual origin in populist opposition to the Liberal dominance of the post-ausgleich years, the Social Democrats, the populist-conservatives of the CS and the German nationalists.

I assume that originally, this balance will obtain as the Deutschnationale are the only nationalist faction left with much credit. but it wioll change soon enough. National parties will become the strongest players and conservatives and Social Democrats find themselves joining forces in defense of an overarching identity.

How does this trifecta develop and what's the politics like in the non-German parts?

For a long time, there is going to be a mosaic of dominant parties. Industrial cities will have strong Social Democratic party machines, but in the countryside, their reach is minimal. Ethnic nationalist parties compete with clerical conservatives here. Governance depends on a lot of horse trading and grandstanding, which is not healthy.

Edit: How did the franchise develop in Austria? IOTL 1907 saw the reform towards universal male suffrage. This reform was pushed by Franz Josef, who thought that raising the franchise would change Austrian politics from one based on ethnic conflict to one based on class conflict, which he saw as preferable for the stability of the state and his own power (this didn't work out). Meanwhile, the reform was harshly opposed by the arch-reactionary Franz Ferdinand, who however didn't get his way.

With the war happening any reform would be put off and you wrote ways back that FF was gaining more influence over governance during the war. If FF has any real influence he would almost certainly sabotage that reform and it would certainly never pass during his reign proper.

Eventually, manhood suffrage and even female suffrage will come. there is no real way around it. It is supported by the Social democrats and the nationalist parties. And once it comes, it will be a boon to nationalist parties who radicalised in the decades of the 'pressure cooker' when their clear local majorities often did not translate into commensurate representation.

But in detail, i have no idea. AH is weird.

 

[haider najib]

can i get some info on modern ottoman empire?

Also what is the relationship/ nature of the german military in modern germany. Also how is prussia perceived in modern germany, politically, culturally and pop culture. Is prussia percieved as the 'wessex' of germany pushing back the foreign powers etc and pop culture prussian militarism and massive class structure.

lastly does the imperial family still go into the military following prussian tradition so do all the sons join the military and will the female members of the monarchy eventually do this when woman are allowed to join the military.

 

[Tibi088]

lastly does the imperial family still go into the military following prussian tradition so do all the sons join the military and will the female members of the monarchy eventually do this when woman are allowed to join the military.

The thing about monarchies is that tradition is vital for them. I fully expect that in the case of the Hohenzollern sons they will have to enjoy the military experience. In the same vein I really dont see the women being forced in to the military as thats not their tradition - not the role they have to play. This does not mean that there wont be some of them who does - but they will do it on their own volition and be likely an outlier not the norm,

 

[haider najib]

The thing about monarchies is that tradition is vital for them. I fully expect that in the case of the Hohenzollern sons they will have to enjoy the military experience. In the same vein I really dont see the women being forced in to the military as thats not their tradition - not the role they have to play. This does not mean that there wont be some of them who does - but they will do it on their own volition and be likely an outlier not the norm,

Im nit going to lie i know little on german monarchies so i have no clue what the role of woman is.

But wouldn't the monarchy apply those traditions to woman anyway. First to encourage woman to join military pretty much endorcing the use of woman in combat, secondly show the monarchy is relatable, lastly its their duty. I know prussian monarchy and Military have a very strong links so wouldn't be a natural thing. The wife of the prussian king during the Napoleonic wars while not a combatant did come to the battles and was very well liked by the military and people of prussia due to that.

After all wouldn't prussia not double down and not militarise the woman.

 

[carlton_bach]

can i get some info on modern ottoman empire?

Also what is the relationship/ nature of the german military in modern germany. Also how is prussia perceived in modern germany, politically, culturally and pop culture. Is prussia percieved as the 'wessex' of germany pushing back the foreign powers etc and pop culture prussian militarism and massive class structure.

lastly does the imperial family still go into the military following prussian tradition so do all the sons join the military and will the female members of the monarchy eventually do this when woman are allowed to join the military.

I'll have to keep it shortish tonight:

One: The Ottoman Empire is doing better now than it did. It süent the first half of the century on life support, propped up by the fact that the great powers would not allow each other the spoils of dismembering it. Its politics a toxic brew of factionalism, sectarianism and organised crime, the sole source of central power a military that functioned as an extension of German influence. Mutual exhaustion, industrial development, and oil money changed that. By now, though it is still suffering from institutional sclerosis and its parties rarely agree on anything substantial, the Empire is a reasonably stable, middle-income, traditional-values kind of place. Its greatest internal threats were bought off with oil wealth - the Arab Shia, the Kurds and the Wahhabis - or integrated into an urbanising society that is busier making money than martyrs - the Greeks, Jews and Armenians. Or both. It is still not nice being an Armenian in the Empire, but its much better than it used to be.

Two: It is compicated. The military is a beloved institution in most of Gernan society, but its universal presence makes it a somewhat difficult thing to bear in reality. Almost all German men have served, so there is no veteran mystique or "thank you for your service" culture. They have little enough time for the self-aggrandisement of the leadership, they remember their own "lieutenant with a map" moments. But in the abstract, the military is a source of pride (and intense shame when it falls down), a unifying institution and national treasure.
Prussia still sees itself as the nucleus of Germany in a heroic narrative of unifiction, but that narrative is increasingly controversial even in Prussia itself, and it was never unitary even in its heyday. The main avenue of attack is in the class-ridden conservatism of Prussia, an aspect that is by not considered deplorable even by pro-Prussian historians.

Three: all princes of the House serve in the military. This is their profession. Except for the few who take on offices of state (emperor and crown prince are effectively considered jobs, and some princes enter diplomatic functions), they are expected to serve out officer careers until retirement. In most cases this is effectively an easy rise to mid-level command funtcions with little actual responsibility, but they are expected to do real work. Most Hohenzollern men serve in the infantry, often the Gardekorps, on regimental staffs. Some opt for more challenging roles, including naval command, aviation, and in one prominent case, special operations. The women of the family are not encouraged to do this, but as military roles open up to women, they are also not barred from serving. Their careers, if they choose to have them, tend to track those of the more traditional male relatives, mainly in the acceptable branches (medical, supply, training).

 

[haider najib]

the Kurds and the Wahhabis -

i don't see how either pose any real threat kurdish nationalism never had any real conflict with ottomans rather it was tribal issues for them. Ottomans won't be turkifying them and neither suffer oppression by arab nationalists. The second wahhabists should only be a foot note. The sultan is caliph, he is the political head of sunni islam and guardian of the holy cities. Wahhabism won't spread as the ingredients don't exist islam isn't suffering from a collapsed ottoman empire and neither is under threat. Political islam and Wahhabism are not the same thing. Muslim Brotherhood and wahhabists both appose each other. Also the shia issue won't be a issue its only in modern history the sunni shia split has gotten so bad due to the situation of the middle east.

Prussia still sees itself as the nucleus of Germany in a heroic narrative of unifiction, but that narrative is increasingly controversial even in Prussia itself, and it was never unitary even in its heyday. The main avenue of attack is in the class-ridden conservatism of Prussia, an aspect that is by not considered deplorable even by pro-Prussian historians.

apologies can someone help me understand im not smart enough to understand this.

The women of the family are not encouraged to do this, but as military roles open up to women, they are also not barred from serving. Their careers, if they choose to have them, tend to track those of the more traditional male relatives, mainly in the acceptable branches (medical, supply, training).

thats surprising really thought they would just implement the traditions on the woman, even then no actual command or fighting roles. So what do the woman do?

 

[carlton_bach]

i don't see how either pose any real threat kurdish nationalism never had any real conflict with ottomans rather it was tribal issues for them. Ottomans won't be turkifying them and neither suffer oppression by arab nationalists. The second wahhabists should only be a foot note. The sultan is caliph, he is the political head of sunni islam and guardian of the holy cities. Wahhabism won't spread as the ingredients don't exist islam isn't suffering from a collapsed ottoman empire and neither is under threat. Political islam and Wahhabism are not the same thing. Muslim Brotherhood and wahhabists both appose each other. Also the shia issue won't be a issue its only in modern history the sunni shia split has gotten so bad due to the situation of the middle east.

I don't see Kurdish nationalism as a major problem, but the fact that the Kurds have so long been so central to imperial authority in the area. That makes them problematic for the expansion of formal government. The very tribal nature of control would have been a big deal, had it not been for the central government's a bility to grant participation in the oil revenues (and deny it to the rebellious)

as to the wahhabis, I don't think they are that trivial an issue. Not a threat to the integrity of the Empire, but certainly potentially one for its control over the oil wealth in the peninsula. Buying them off with a slice of the 'black gold' and keeping them on side against the Shia population is worth it for the central government. Like the Kurds, they ensure a favourable balance of local power on their end of the oil-rich area.

And the Shia - that divide is going to become virulent ITTL because of the antagonism between the Persian Empire (a British satellite) and the Ottomans (struggling not to be a satellite). Persia is more than happy to subvert local power and try to use disaffected Shia, and the Shia have reason to be disaffected. The great advantage to the Persian government is that they can use highly inflammatory rhetoric and populist demands there without too great a risk of them coming'home to roost' given the degree to which the internal power dynamics of the state are ethnic, not religious.

Now the real threat to the integrity of the Empire was Arab ethnic nationalism, and that came and went. It was never bought off, it was diluted, partly suppressed, partly accepted. The resulting compromises burden the political system. There are still enough secessionists in the Levant and Mesopotamia to be a serious political party. But no longer enough hotheads to actually try a guerilla war like they did earlier in the century. This is one of the conflicts the Empire has not resolved.

apologies can someone help me understand im not smart enough to understand this.

Not least, probably, because there is a typo in there. Basically, classic Prussian-centric German histpry tells the grand story of how Germany fell into ruin after the Staufen dynasty was destroyed, but went on an upward trajectory from abject oppression through Luther, the Great Elector, Frederick II and Bismarck to emerge triumphant as a great power and Kulturnation. That story is still popular with a certain subset ofg bourgeois nationalists, but it is no longer current. And because Germany is a federal system with separate states running their own schools and universities, it was never unquestioningly embraced in Catholic Bavaria, liberal Wurttemberg, proud Saxony or the maritime cities. You always had countervailing stories, and by now even in the heart of Prussian intellectualism, the critical counter-narrative is widespread. The lost chances of 1806 and 1848, the alternative possibilities of the Old Reich or the Zollverein, the model of the self-contained post-Napoleonic territorial state or the loose confederation post-1648 are all considered seriously. Frederick II is no longer worshipped uncritically

thats surprising really thought they would just implement the traditions on the woman, even then no actual command or fighting roles. So what do the woman do?

This is Germany, a country that IOTL (after two of the most severe breaches of tradition you can imagine) only allowed women in combat roles in 2005 after being forced by the European Court. Some traditions die hard.

As to what they do, they make military careers, command units, do their paperwork, spend time-in-grade and get promoted after satisfactory fitness reports. Careers come more easily if you are a Hohenzollern, but they still need to put in the work. I don't envision there will be more than a handful who actually go beyond the traditional honorary colonelcies Europe's royals gift each other. The women of the immediate imperial family are needed in protocol roles, after all, since the men are so often unavailable. but for those that go 'career', command of a hospital, a military language school, a motor pool facility, MEDEVAC squadron or supply management unit would be the positions they can reasonably aspire to. Logistocs and medical services are not negligible fields.

 

[haider najib]

Not a threat to the integrity of the Empire, but certainly potentially one for its control over the oil wealth in the peninsula. Buying them off with a slice of the 'black gold' and keeping them on side against the Shia population is worth it for the central government. Like the Kurds, they ensure a favourable balance of local power on their end of the oil-rich area.

wahhabism only grew due to a vaccum theres no reason it would gain its influence the oil areas of the east of arabia are shia. Wahhabists are backed by a few bedouin tribes. They don't have the power to even dominate the arabia. few of the tribes that bent the knee to the saudis would it here as the ottomans hold sway the ottomans literally destroyed the first wahhabists state. How is a sect going to attract support when their only notable achievement was attacking the holy cities and damaging them. All you have to do is either shoot all the saudis or shoot their imans wahhabism is not that big. What is their argument we need to go back in time to better islam? the imans and islamic education of note is ottoman controlled india has its own islamic school of thought. Wahhabism only grew due to the collapse of the ottomans. Caliphs can declare sects heretical they done to major ones before a tribe in nejd poses little threat, Jabal Shammar still exists and the ottomans given any breathing space can crush the nejd emirate. Wahhabism is just a sect followed by a few bedoiun trbies. Only due to no ottomans and failure of the secular arab states did wahabism become predominant in muslim arabs.