Enlightenment Reaches Muslim World

[Anaxagoras]

In watching the unfolding events surrounding the Mohammed cartoon controversy, it seems quite clear to me that the divide between Western and Islamic nations is based in their different historical experiences.

There was a time when Europeans took issues of religious sacrilege just as seriously as Muslims are taking them today- look at the Reformation and the Thirty Years War and so forth. But after the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th Centuries, this type of thinking seemed to fade from the Western mind, which lead to the establishment of a generally secular outlook and a tradition of separation of church and state.

The Enlightenment did not reach the Muslim world, but did this have to be the case? During the Middle Ages, the Muslim world was a center of scientific and philosophical thought. As they did not favor painting (for reasons which should be obvious these days), they found an artistic outlet in architecture and the result was a series of beautiful buildings across the world. But after the Mongol invasions of the 13th and 14th Centuries, this era of intellectual achievement came to a halt.

How might Enlightenment thinking have spread to the Muslim world? How far back would you need to go for a POD, and how big would the POD have to be?

 

[MarkA]

Images have been used throught history to denegrate and humiliate people. Graffiti in Pompeii shows christ on the cross with a donkey headed. Irish, Germans, blacks, jews, catholics, arabs have all been subject to this type of campaign. But don't the establishment scream when one of their iconic figures is ridiculed.

Britain and the US in the 1960's were places where blasphomy trials were still taking place and where books were regularly banned. School boards in the US still ban books do they not? They certainly distort and stifle history and science in some districts.

When the people in islamic countries believe they are the subject of oppression and invasion and derision by the 'west' then this reaction makes more sense. It may be over the top but then were the Watts riots or the peace marches?

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Indeed. Had I been a Muslim, that would be fightin' words for myself too.

Remark he have a good idea - how could we have an ATL with a Muslim Enlightement? How would be a world where the 'door of interpretations, where shut oin forever, left opened? A sort of advanced version of modern days Turkey?

 

[Faeelin]

How might Enlightenment thinking have spread to the Muslim world? How far back would you need to go for a POD, and how big would the POD have to be?

A Muslim nation with a seperation of Church and state? Well, that's Turkey.

A nation with millions of muslims, with a seperation of church and state? India.

An interesting thought: Religion was pretty important in the running of Franco's Spain, too.

 

[Anaxagoras]

A Muslim nation with a seperation of Church and state? Well, that's Turkey.

Sort of. But it seems to be more a form of religion being overridden by the state, rather than separate from it. Are not Turkish imams still on the state payroll? Besides, that is a single exception.

A nation with millions of muslims, with a seperation of church and state? India.

Muslims make up less than one-fifth of India's population.

An interesting thought: Religion was pretty important in the running of Franco's Spain, too.

True. But that seems to support my main argument, since Spain was not as impacted by the Enlightenment as the rest of Western society was.

 

[Faeelin]

Muslims make up less than one-fifth of India's population.

Hmm. Muslims are 14% of India's population of over 1 billion.

Lessee.... so there are only one hundred and forty million Muslims in India. Yessir, certainly irrelevent to a discussion of Islam at large.

True. But that seems to support my main argument, since Spain was not as impacted by the Enlightenment as the rest of Western society was.

The way, say, Germany or Italy were?

Hmm.

Sort of. But it seems to be more a form of religion being overridden by the state, rather than separate from it.

How so?

Sure, Attaturk did some drastic things. But what makes you think that the state has overriden religion in modern turkey?

 

[Anaxagoras]

I'm not in the mood to get bogged down in such details, but real quick:
1. India's Muslim population is huge, but India is primarily a Hindu nation, so to discuss it is to avoid my point.
2. Actually, Germany and Italy were centers of the Enlightenment (depending on how you define "The Enlightenment" of course).
3. In practice, Turkey's religious leaders cannot really do anything the government has a strong objection to. But again, Turkey is sort of a special case and is certainly not representative of the Muslim world as a whole.

If my point is incorrect:

1. Why did King Hussein, when diagnosed with cancer, choose to go to the Mayo Clinic in Minnessota rather than a hosptial in Amman?
2. Why can I stand in the middle of my city and denounce the government with impunity while similar behavior would have me thrown in prison or killed in any major city in the Arab world?
3. Why did the Arabs need Western technology and technicians to develop its oil industry?

 

[Faeelin]

I'm not in the mood to get bogged down in such details, but real quick:
1. India's Muslim population is huge, but India is primarily a Hindu nation, so to discuss it is to avoid my point.

Why?

Suddenly, to discuss a nation w/ tens of millions of Muslims which is trying to seperate state and religion is avoiding your discussion of the seperation of church and state in the islamic world?

2. Actually, Germany and Italy were centers of the Enlightenment (depending on how you define "The Enlightenment" of course).

And yet they have still done awful things in their past.

3. In practice, Turkey's religious leaders cannot really do anything the government has a strong objection to. But again, Turkey is sort of a special case and is certainly not representative of the Muslim world as a whole.

This is the Turkey that's led by the Justice and Development party, right?

1. Why did King Hussein, when diagnosed with cancer, choose to go to the Mayo Clinic in Minnessota rather than a hosptial in Amman?

For the same reason that many rich people in 3rd world nations prefer hospitals in the civilized world?

2. Why can I stand in the middle of my city and denounce the government with impunity while similar behavior would have me thrown in prison or killed in any major city in the Arab world?

A state where you get killed for denouncing your government....

hmm. Definitely out of line with modern western history.

3. Why did the Arabs need Western technology and technicians to develop its oil industry?

So now you're asking Why did Saudi Arabia fail to industrialize?

Umm.

Err.

Because it's a desert?

 

[DominusNovus]

Scott, you're being obtuse on purpose.

 

[Max Sinister]

The Caliph TL from Gurps AE 2 suggests that you could start an Industrial Revolution with oil instead of coal too. Now they only need lots of iron. And, I don't know, a scientific revolution first?

 

[Jason]

But after the Mongol invasions of the 13th and 14th Centuries, this era of intellectual achievement came to a halt.

How might Enlightenment thinking have spread to the Muslim world? How far back would you need to go for a POD, and how big would the POD have to be?

Hmmm, maybe the answer is the first bit of the quote-the Mongol Invasions. If they hadn't had messed things up and ended the intellectual achievements of the Muslim World then maybe it could have met the enlightenment and benefited both sides.

Mind you, maybe getting rid of the Crusades might help a bit as well

 

[Max Sinister]

Nah, I think the Crusades only scratched the islamic world. After all, the Christians never gained more than a few cities. The attack of the Mongols, however, smashed them.

 

[Xen]

Perhaps, as others have said, the MUslim World wasn't plagued by wars. Maybe we can take a different route for early Muslim history, they suffer defeats from the Persians and Romans in the north, but the two sides are too busy fighting each other to worry too much about the Muslims in the desert. Instead of conquering what is today the Middle East, the Muslims look to Africa, conquering the East African shoreline, and making encroachments into the African mainland, they build roads, fabulous Mosques that rival any European Christian Cathedral, trade with the local tribes, converting them to their religion, and generally are left in peace. The Mongols will be the problem of the Persians and Romans, but might make their way south when they hear of the wealth the Muslim world holds, they may make their way down the Red Sea. Im actually working on something along these lines for a timeline.

Something else Ive considered, have Muslims discover the New World, the Christians are far too busy trying to reconquer the old world, so the Muslims discover America and the tribes. The Aztecs convert to Islam and with old world technology move on to conquer a large chunk of North and Central America. The Caliphate of the Comanche anyone?

 

[Jason]

Nah, I think the Crusades only scratched the islamic world. After all, the Christians never gained more than a few cities. The attack of the Mongols, however, smashed them.

Fair enough but I think the Crusades have a lot to do with the 'problems' shall we say. Without the Crusades, or perhaps I should say without Crusaders who decided that the best way to save the holy land was to kill every one who was a crusader even if they were Christain, AND without the Mongols then perhaps some sort of shared enlightenment?

 

[DuQuense]

The Mongol invaded Euope in the 1240's but left when the great Khan died and everyone had to go home to choice a new one.

twenty years later when they returned, they went south across the islamic World. Doing such destroyed the great Universities in cities like Bagdad, and Damascus, along with most of the intellectual wing of Islam.

this left the rebuilding to the lower level Immans and Ayatollahahs. Imagine Catholism if the pope and cardinals were removed and it was up to the inquistion to rebuild the church. The "Gate of Interpertation " was slammed shut, and Islam took the hardline fundumentalist road that has lead to today.

As such I se your best POD being in the 1260's

 

[Max Sinister]

It's the big question what the Muslims could've achieved if the Mongols hadn't hit them. The fact that they're not allowed to make pictures could hamper them (how can you learn as a doctor about the human body if you're not allowed to look at pictures of it? Even Christianity had some problems with that, although they were eventually overcome), but in many sciences they could make progresses - maths and geometry, physics, chemistry... only biology and medicine (esp. anatomy) would make more problems.

Even the Crusades shouldn't be such a big problem - as early as 1290, a Christian state (Aragon) allied with a Muslim one (Egypt).

 

[Derek Jackson]

I think it was also an issue of how the enlightenment reached the Moslem World. It is arguable it was taken on Napoleone bayonets to Egypt, and this did not make it popular.

 

[Faeelin]

Perhaps, as others have said, the MUslim World wasn't plagued by wars. Maybe we can take a different route for early Muslim history, they suffer defeats from the Persians and Romans in the north, but the two sides are too busy fighting each other to worry too much about the Muslims in the desert. Instead of conquering what is today the Middle East, the Muslims look to Africa, conquering the East African shoreline, and making encroachments into the African mainland, they build roads, fabulous Mosques that rival any European Christian Cathedral, trade with the local tribes, converting them to their religion, and generally are left in peace.

But the Muslims did do these things in East Africa.

 

[Faeelin]

Anyway, what are we looking to get here?

A world view based in a rational view of the world?

Hmm. This might be part of, and even necessary for a scientific revolution.

But does this necessarily mean an irreligious worldview?

Or are you merely looking for a secular, democratic middle east? Those are two very different things.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Anyway, what are we looking to get here?

A world view based in a rational view of the world?

Hmm. This might be part of, and even necessary for a scientific revolution.

But does this necessarily mean an irreligious worldview?

Or are you merely looking for a secular, democratic middle east? Those are two very different things.

Well, i guess that he asked at least for Rousseau and Voltaire's era Enlightement, albeit due to the nature of Islam, the anticlericalism, if not outright antirreligion ideas of that philosophia will be REALLY toned down.