English Electric Lightning into space

Nell_Lucifer

Nell_Lucifer

The thread's title might seem confusing or, well, stupid, but after watching a few videos of people achieving a spaceflight first - sending a human into space ( beyond 100 km) - by utilizing an EE Lightning (KSP RO) I just couldn't get the idea out of my head and when I told one of my British friends about it he jokingly said that: "The British dream of sending a Lightning into orbit." which kinda did it for me. Therefore, I gotta ask the people who are more knowledgeable than me about Post-WW2 Britain, the Space Race and so on how it could be achieved.

My initial thought on how to achieve this is by doing either a Blue Steak booster stage (Getting it sooner and also launching a satellite first?) or launching it from a bomber at high altitude. Obviously this Space Lightning would require to be made out of different materials (perhaps titanium, chrome-nickel high temperature resistant alloys or stainless steel alloys?) house a rocket engine (Gamma 2?) and have an adequate life support system for the few minutes outside the atmosphere. (I only see this being a suborbital research plane and nothing more, akin to the X-15)

Now why on Earth would anyone want to attempt this... thing... instead of building a dedicated research plane? Well, from my understanding of the EE Lightning it started off as a high speed research plane so in that same vein and given that Britain was also looking into ballistic re-entry, the heat generated and rocket powered interceptors, I guess it could be possible to attempt all 3 tasks with a single vehicle in an effort at cutting costs? I mean, even if the idea sounds stupid it is not unlikely that the British government of the 50s/60s won't choose the most insane and idiotic option...

(What would be the ramifications of Britain achieving the first human in space? Or two firsts, a satellite and human before everyone else?)
 

Polish Eagle

If you're making the plane out of titanium or inconel, it's not a Lightning anymore, even if you slavishly copy the outer mold line. Even if you strip the engines out, the thing will have a dry weight in excess of 12 tonnes--twice that of an X-15.

There's high speed and then there's high speed. Hypersonics is a qualitatively different flight regime from mere supersonic flight--the thermal issues are vastly different.

Now, with that said:

Anything could be flung into space given sufficient rocket thrust. Surviving the return is the hard part. If you wanted to send a Lightning on a suborbital trajectory, and assuming a kerosene-LOX engine comparable to those used on Blue Streak, you'd need a rocket with at least a 10-tonne loaded weight (assuming massless tanks--the delta-v here is only 1.4 km/s, so I'm not bothering with a spreadsheet just yet). In other words, you would basically need a Black Arrow to loft your Lightning on a sub-orbital flight. Not available before 1960, of course--Britain isn't getting the first astronaut this way.

I think you might be able to do the same with a PGM-17 Thor, which, conveniently, was tested for RAF use as early as 1959. But the problem of recovering the Lightning means you could get up, but probably wouldn't survive the return flight (aerodynamic stress would destroy the airplane on its way down). If the British want to get sneaky, they could build a Mercury-equivalent spacecraft and use one of their borrowed Thor missiles to put the first man in space before either Vostok or Mercury. Of course, this would annoy the Americans supplying the missiles to no end.
 

Navigator

In the OTL the British Interplanetary Society had a plan to put a manned V2 into sub-orbit by 1949. It wasn’t funded by the government of the day. Subsequently, the 1957 defence review cancelled many aircraft projects in the misguided belief that all future aerial warfare would be by ICBM and surface to air missiles. The Lightnings escaped by the skin of their teeth, but were never developed as their replacement was only ever 5 years away.... until 1988.
 

njslim

Nell_Lucifer said:
The thread's title might seem confusing or, well, stupid, but after watching a few videos of people achieving a spaceflight first - sending a human into space ( beyond 100 km) - by utilizing an EE Lightning (KSP RO) I just couldn't get the idea out of my head and when I told one of my British friends about it he jokingly said that: "The British dream of sending a Lightning into orbit." which kinda did it for me. Therefore, I gotta ask the people who are more knowledgeable than me about Post-WW2 Britain, the Space Race and so on how it could be achieved.

My initial thought on how to achieve this is by doing either a Blue Steak booster stage (Getting it sooner and also launching a satellite first?) or launching it from a bomber at high altitude. Obviously this Space Lightning would require to be made out of different materials (perhaps titanium, chrome-nickel high temperature resistant alloys or stainless steel alloys?) house a rocket engine (Gamma 2?) and have an adequate life support system for the few minutes outside the atmosphere. (I only see this being a suborbital research plane and nothing more, akin to the X-15)

Now why on Earth would anyone want to attempt this... thing... instead of building a dedicated research plane? Well, from my understanding of the EE Lightning it started off as a high speed research plane so in that same vein and given that Britain was also looking into ballistic re-entry, the heat generated and rocket powered interceptors, I guess it could be possible to attempt all 3 tasks with a single vehicle in an effort at cutting costs? I mean, even if the idea sounds stupid it is not unlikely that the British government of the 50s/60s won't choose the most insane and idiotic option...

(What would be the ramifications of Britain achieving the first human in space? Or two firsts, a satellite and human before everyone else?)
Click to expand...
NASA Converted some Lockheed F104 Starfighters into high altitude research craft (NA-104) adding a Rocketdyne AR 2-3 rocket motor of 6500 lbs thrust fueled by JP4 and 90 % hydrogen peroxide in the tail The rocket had 100 seconds of fuel. a reaction control system in the wingtips powered by hydrogen peroxide like that used in Mercury spacecraft was used do the lack of atmosphere affecting the flight controls Could reach altitudes of 120 000 ft , short of the Karman line Launched from a B52 bomber could probably climbed higher

Chuck Yeager crashed while piloting one of these - an incident recorded in THE RIGHT STUFF

en.wikipedia.org

Lockheed NF-104A - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

AR2-3

AR2-3
www.astronautix.com www.astronautix.com
 

njslim

Polish Eagle said:
If you're making the plane out of titanium or inconel, it's not a Lightning anymore, even if you slavishly copy the outer mold line. Even if you strip the engines out, the thing will have a dry weight in excess of 12 tonnes--twice that of an X-15.

There's high speed and then there's high speed. Hypersonics is a qualitatively different flight regime from mere supersonic flight--the thermal issues are vastly different.

Now, with that said:

Anything could be flung into space given sufficient rocket thrust. Surviving the return is the hard part. If you wanted to send a Lightning on a suborbital trajectory, and assuming a kerosene-LOX engine comparable to those used on Blue Streak, you'd need a rocket with at least a 10-tonne loaded weight (assuming massless tanks--the delta-v here is only 1.4 km/s, so I'm not bothering with a spreadsheet just yet). In other words, you would basically need a Black Arrow to loft your Lightning on a sub-orbital flight. Not available before 1960, of course--Britain isn't getting the first astronaut this way.

I think you might be able to do the same with a PGM-17 Thor, which, conveniently, was tested for RAF use as early as 1959. But the problem of recovering the Lightning means you could get up, but probably wouldn't survive the return flight (aerodynamic stress would destroy the airplane on its way down). If the British want to get sneaky, they could build a Mercury-equivalent spacecraft and use one of their borrowed Thor missiles to put the first man in space before either Vostok or Mercury. Of course, this would annoy the Americans supplying the missiles to no end.
Click to expand...
Problem with a THOR Booster for a suborbital hop is that THOR has 5 x the range of the modified REDSTONE used for the first Mercury flights Launching from UK would quickly run out of room , unless could ask US to borrow a launch pad at Cape Canaveral The Mercury Redstones travelled over 300 miles on their short 15 min hops

British Interplanetary Society, a private group, proposed using a V2 as basis for MEGAROC to launch manned rockets into space

Megaroc - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 

Navigator

Just a quick reminder that the internationally accepted boundary of 'space' is at 328,084' 4¾". Our friends across the water use a lower alternative, but even that is at 264,000'.
 

Navigator

njslim said:
Problem with a THOR Booster for a suborbital hop is that THOR has 5 x the range of the modified REDSTONE used for the first Mercury flights Launching from UK would quickly run out of room , unless could ask US to borrow a launch pad at Cape Canaveral The Mercury Redstones travelled over 300 miles on their short 15 min hops

British Interplanetary Society, a private group, proposed using a V2 as basis for MEGAROC to launch manned rockets into space.
Click to expand...

Woomera was available and had two advantages: closer to the equator (gaining more energy from Earth's rotation) and fewer issues downrange.
 
Michel Van

Michel Van

A EE Lightning into Orbit ?!

Aerodynamic the Lightning has not ideal form for reentry from mach 25 down to zero.
Next to that you need Heatshield to prevent that Lightning not melted on return.

Blue Streak booster must be modified to carry heavy Lightning since Blue Streak has weight limit of 12000kg for upper stage
EE Lightning jet engines replace with rocket engines and external fuel tanks to get into orbit.
and reaction control system installed and life support for astronaut

But Is there alternative for EE Lightning in space
Suborbital and that can do EE Lightning with easy modifications
You need only around mach 3 to catapult the Lightning up to 100 km hight
Aerodynamic at mach 3 much better to handle for Lightning
On engine either you replace one engine with rocket motor using kerosine and HTP
or put more powerful engines into Lightning

Those modification are much cheaper as to make EE Lightning a mini shuttle with Blue Streak
 

sonofpegasus

"Simple's"
Do not have the Miles M2 cancelled, It is the first aircraft to break the sound barrier, continue it's development into a sub-orbital variant. Later add rocket boosters and there you go!! Oh and call it ' Project Lightning'
 

Navigator

The first prototype was capable of almost Mach 1·5 so later (conventional) developments might get that to ~1·8. Adding boosters would conserve internal fuel for use at higher altitude. Once again, the alloys and composites don't exist to shield the belly; which is why MegaRoc used a capsule and parachutes deployed at over 60 miles rather than trying to glide home.
 

mtpalmer1

A Lightning with a Napier Double Scorpion rocket pack might tip over circa 90000ft for an interesting ride back down. A Lightning as a 1st stage for something like Caleb or Hi-Hoe is quite possible to qualify for "by Lightning into space".

en.wikipedia.org

NOTS-EV-2 Caleb - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

A manned product of English Electric ancestry breaching the Kármán line at some point in the 1960s isn't outside the realms of possibility. There were a number of hypersonic studies made with various BAC EAG project numbers. The only way a Lightning would have any real bearing on those though is as a chase plane for the first 40000ft or so.
 

Navigator

mtpalmer1 said:
A Lightning with a Napier Double Scorpion rocket pack might tip over circa 90000ft for an interesting ride back down.
Click to expand...

Flt Lt Mike Hale took the conventional F3 XR749 to 88,000' over the North Sea and Chief Instructor Brian Carroll a F53 to 87,300' over Saudi Arabia. The maximum speed was limited by the inlet shock cone temperature, with F1, F1A and F2 being generally limited to Mach 1·7 (1,148 mph) and F2A onwards being allowed to (and, on colder days, occasionally beyond) Mach 2·0 (1,350 mph). Mike Hale and XR749 were also the only pair to catch Concorde in the April 1985 challenge, reaching a maximum of Mach 2·3 (1,553 mph). None of the F14/15/16s, F104s or Mirages could catch the airliner at 57,000' and Mach 2·2 (1,485 mph).
 

Polish Eagle

njslim said:
Problem with a THOR Booster for a suborbital hop is that THOR has 5 x the range of the modified REDSTONE used for the first Mercury flights Launching from UK would quickly run out of room , unless could ask US to borrow a launch pad at Cape Canaveral The Mercury Redstones travelled over 300 miles on their short 15 min hops

British Interplanetary Society, a private group, proposed using a V2 as basis for MEGAROC to launch manned rockets into space
Click to expand...
Navigator said:
Woomera was available and had two advantages: closer to the equator (gaining more energy from Earth's rotation) and fewer issues downrange.
Click to expand...
As an alternative, you can just under-load the Thor (give it only a partial load of propellant), or cut off the engine when you are on a suborbital trajectory.
 

The Wooksta!

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Avro Z-21, a manned version of the Blue Steel, intended for low earth orbital flights.
 

RanulfC

The Wooksta! said:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Avro Z-21, a manned version of the Blue Steel, intended for low earth orbital flights.
Click to expand...

Eh, not quite :) It was essentially a "pre-X-15" concept with a target speed of around Mach 4-ish and 100,000ft altitude. (Maybe)

Randy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top