Well then Max will be firmly against any inheritance of Prussia outside the direct male line AND would die before the extinction of that branch. Ferdinand would take Prussia for himself and likely compensated his brother and the Teutonic order
Empress Isabella Clara Eugenia and her world
- Thread starter isabella
- Start date
Oh, right... Then Henry of Lorraine will marry only Eleanor and had a surviving son by her while Ernest will exchange Brittany with the the parts of Burgundian inheritance they had lost and some border adjustment in their favor...
I'm not sure why Henry II of Lorraine would have any claim to Brittany. His mother Claude was the younger sister of Elisabeth, Isabella Clara Eugenia's mother. So any claim to Brittany would pass through Elisabeth not Claude. I just meant that, in retrospect, the failure of Henry II's marriages, the first to Henry IV's sister the second to Marie de'Medici's niece, to produce any male heirs was the beginning of Lorraine's decline in the 17th century. So if he could form a union with someone not connected to the French royal family and produce an heir maybe that could be avoided.
And here I thought Ferdinand II's ULTRA Catholicism couldn't get any worse. Imagine if he had married Catherine! Suddenly I'm seeing his Catholicism become even MORE extreme (if that were possible)
@isabella meant that Isabel Clara Eugenia's daughter would be named as heiress to Brittany by her marriage contract/mom's abdication. Isabella would then marry Henri II of Lorraine. And Henri IV would trade some other (closer) territories to the duke of Lorraine in exchange for Brittany.
At least that's my understanding of it.
Seriously. I think it was also planned to try and link up all the hardcore Catholics. Maximilian of Bavaria had married another Lorraine princess and Antonia was married to John William of Cleves Julich to shore up Catholicism in Westphalia. The house of Lorraine could have been connected to all the major Catholic houses of the Empire but neither of them had any kids and Ferdinand's Lorraine marriage never materialized.
That makes sense. Sorry. I could definitely see a complicated web of alliances and settlements coming out of Henry of Navarre's accession.
@Vitruvius @Kellan Sullivan
I had forgotten who the Spanish Netherlands included still part of Burgundy and Franche Comté so I had a sonless Henry II of Lorraine remarrying to Isabella of Burgundy, the eldest daughter of his cousin Isabella and Ernest (and niece of his late first wife) who would bring her mother’s right on Brittany as part of her dowry, but considering who Ernest can do that exchange himself I scrapped that part.
Pretty interesting that network of ultra Catholic weddings but here that will not happen.
the idea of Ferdinand marrying an ultra Catholic princess and/or that of Philip II taking his other ultra Catholic niece Margaret as fifth wife... Well better that weddings had not happened
I had forgotten who the Spanish Netherlands included still part of Burgundy and Franche Comté so I had a sonless Henry II of Lorraine remarrying to Isabella of Burgundy, the eldest daughter of his cousin Isabella and Ernest (and niece of his late first wife) who would bring her mother’s right on Brittany as part of her dowry, but considering who Ernest can do that exchange himself I scrapped that part.
Pretty interesting that network of ultra Catholic weddings but here that will not happen.
the idea of Ferdinand marrying an ultra Catholic princess and/or that of Philip II taking his other ultra Catholic niece Margaret as fifth wife... Well better that weddings had not happened
Last edited:
some notes
Recapping:
- Henry II of Lorraine will marry Ernest’s youngest sister Eleanor and they will have some children including a surviving son, who will inherit Lorraine and will be already adult and married at his father’s death (preventing any move from his paternal uncle).
- The war of the three Henrys will go on longer as Henry, Duke of Guise will not be assassinated as OTL and his son Charles will marry Elisabeth of Lorraine, youngest sister of Henry II.
- Ernest will claim Brittany in name of his wife, then later exchanged Isabella‘s rights on Brittany for the lost parts of Burgundy and Franche Comté plus some bits of Champagne in border‘s adjustments
They could claim the lands in violet?
They could swap the lands in Violet with Brittany...that might work...
They could swap the lands in Violet with Brittany...that might work...
I can't see the French ever agreeing to concede the Somme towns. The border was already dangerously close to Paris so moving it any further south would be unacceptable to the French. Besides if Ernest's line rules the Empire then Metz Toul and Verdun have more strategic value to them by guarding the approaches down the Moselle or through Lorraine to the upper Rhine and securing communication with Franche Comte.
Perhaps the Duchy of Burgundy can be swapped with Brittany, that might be enough.
The whole Burgundy, Artois, Saint Pol and bits of Champagne... Ernest would take as much lands as he can in exchange of Brittany
Artois is already under Habsburg control. I was referring to the towns on the Somme that were pawned to the Dukes of Burgundy in the 15th century and commonly appear on maps of their territory. It's unlikely the Habsburgs would be able to get their hands on them. I think the French Kings would sooner enfeoff an Archduke with the Duchy of Burgundy than surrender territory on the Somme as it would leave Paris and the Seine basin extremely vulnerable to attack from the Habsburg Netherlands.
Oh, well without an updated map is not easy recognizing what was French and what Burgundian. The Somme is out of question for Ernest naturally, he will take happily all the parts of both Burgundy who are not already in his possession and border bits (or a strip) of Champagne...
And I suspect that the French will scrabble around trying to get the duchy of Burgundy back in any war to come. So Ernst GETTING it and his heirs KEEPING it would be two different matters.
But I wonder how this "pawning" of French provinces will affect the view of Henri IV TTL. OT1H he's securing Brittany (and he'll probably want to make it that, like with Navarre, the succession can't diverge from the French succession to prevent anything like this happening in future), but OTOH, he's WILLINGLY giving up a province (Burgundy) that the French spilled blood over in Louis XI, François I and Henri II's reign to KEEP.
other notes
Well, the French would NEVER be able again to take Burgundy because Burgundy, Netherlands and a couple of generations later Lorraine will be all part of the personal possession of the Holy Roman Emperor AND the usual seat of his heir. Without Hungary and with Burgundy and Netherlands, the Austrian Habsburg will concentrate their energy on Germany (and the Burgundian colonies) and in the end this lands (including Alsace) will be all part of the ATL Imperial Germany, born from the centralization of the Holy Roman Empire with the Austrian Habsburg as hereditary rulers.
ATL Henry IV (who will able to free himself of the Guisa once for all as both their main holdings (Guise and Aumale) will be among the lands given to Ernest) will justify the dolorous cession of Burgundy with the absolute need to prevent and neutralize once for all the eventuality of a foreign or worse Austrian Brittany (something for which Louis XI, Charles VIII, Louis XII, Francois I had all fought hard). Better renouncing to Burgundy and other border lands than seeing Brittany transformed in a new, bigger and much more dangerous Calais (by the way, both Calais and the county of Boulogne will be among the lands lost by Franceas more coast and good ports will be among Ernest’s requests)
French nobility and population will understand that (and in any case Henry IV, whatever thing he does, will end assassinated by someone for some reason)
Last edited:
I need two good Catholics daughter-in-laws for Ernest and Isabella.
I know who Maximilian’s son, Holy Roman Emperor Ernest II will marry Christine, Duchess of Lorraine, only surviving child of his cousin Charles of Lorraine (son of Henry II of Lorraine and Eleanor of Austria) and will get back Further Austria at the childless death of his uncle Karl so Austrian hold on their lands (and on the Empire will be preserved).
Any candidates as Holy Roman Empress or Queen of Poland and Hungary? Maximilian III is born in 1585 and Ferdinand in 1587
I know who Maximilian’s son, Holy Roman Emperor Ernest II will marry Christine, Duchess of Lorraine, only surviving child of his cousin Charles of Lorraine (son of Henry II of Lorraine and Eleanor of Austria) and will get back Further Austria at the childless death of his uncle Karl so Austrian hold on their lands (and on the Empire will be preserved).
Any candidates as Holy Roman Empress or Queen of Poland and Hungary? Maximilian III is born in 1585 and Ferdinand in 1587
House of Lorraine - tree
Charles III, Duke of Lorraine (b. 1543) married Claude of Valois (1547-1575) in 1559
- Henry II, Duke of Lorraine (b. 1563) married Eleanor of Austria (b. 1568)
- Christina (b. 1565) married Ferdinando I de Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany (b. 1549)
- Charles, Cardinal of Lorraine (b. 1567)
- Antonia of Lorraine (b. 1568) married Charles, Duke of Guise (b. 1571)
- Anne of Lorraine (1569-1576)
- Francis, Count of Vaudémont (b. 1572) married Christina of Salm (b. 1575)
- Catherine of Lorraine (b. 1573), Abbess of Remiremont
- Elisabeth of Lorraine (1574-1504) married Maximilian I, Duke of Bavaria (b. 1573)
- Claude of Lorraine (1575-1576)
Last edited: