If liberal and democratic movements go, there is a chance that Philippine's will go down the way of the Latin Americas' (which they are closer culturally) dictatorship which will lead into civil war sooner or later. But I hope with the influence of Andres's British friends (and in this ATL so far, Andres had sought closer ties to the British with James Brooke advisor and Opium War involvement...now i think about it, though I don't think this was intentional, what better way to give a subtle middle finger to Spain by seeking closer ties with Britain, the colonial rival to Spain and a fellow island nation), Philippines will follow Britain with the reformation of the constitution instead with constitutional monarchy with strong parliamentary system influenced by Britain (which denotes the Emperor's power into generally ceremonial in nature while the real power goes to the parliament and prime minister). It is still democratic and liberal.
Empire of New Castille
- Thread starter Namayan
- Start date
Not really. Democracy is not yet popular in Europe from 1823 to 1843. The European revolutions of 1848 haven't happened, yet.
Andres is managing the Philippines like a Prussian authoritarian, cost effective management, fiscally sound like the British. In EUIV terms he is 6 in Administration, 5/6 in Diplomacy, 2/3 in military with 6 being the highest. It is not like the Philippines is impoverished or mismanaged after 20 years.
Even stereotypes on Andresians the last update was different in Luzon, Cebu, Bohol compared to Hispanics or other Filipinos in OTL. But OTL Filipino and Hispanic culture is still much alive in the other areas outside Luzon, Cebu and Bohol. So you may get your wish of chaos in those areas outside Luzon, Cebu and Bohol.
Andresians were really unintended result of public education, strict enforcement of Andres, like a police/military state in places that laws were strictly enforced. For us in 21st century it can be defined as social engineering, similar how Marcos tried to change the Philippine culture/government system made by the USA for the worse.
The Andresians are like the German stereotype but speaking Spanish who loves bullring and mostly Catholics.
Thanks!That's good! for me, I quite saw the potential of an independent philippines in 1823. Even wrote a generalized draft with that POD Andres Novales in this forum that covers from 1823 - end of WW2, which was partly inspired by your past posts haha. But I wrote it as first time alternate historian writer so there may be large historical inaccuracies. And so many butterflies done with just regional power Philippines in SEA in 19th-20th century.
Keep witing though! I'll be watching your updates
Oh! Love this Andresians tidbit, I'm seeing a potential spark for potential civil war in the future? as slime_boob said, he's running the government like somewhat like a dictator (albeit a very good one!), sooner or later, 1 or 2 generations later, empowered people will cry for more voice in the government. I guess there would be constitutional reforms (would a constitutional monarchy with strong parliamentary system be in the sights? I tend to notice parliamentary systems tend to be more politically stable and they always seemed paired up with monarchies which the Philippines had already with Novales, Britain is already practicing this, I think?)
The reform or liberal movement of the illustrados and other liberals iotl started after the opening of suez that is why I said after the suez. And a good example of this is Porfirio Diaz. Dictator of Mexico, he made Mexico one of the richest place on earth. From being dirt poor to very rich. Then the reform movement that advocates democracy and liberalism got strong. Cheated elections then got deposed, then multiple factions got into civil war like the moderate reformers vs the radicals, vs the conservatives, vs reactionaries and many more factions. That destroyed most of the progress
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With the given opressive systems it is possible that there would be a strong movement for a Liberal Democracy to take shape I believe
Yes, the British are running it. But the other Europeans aren't yet.
Part of the decision to remain an authoritarian is to make things decide faster. If you got a parliament or cortes that will drag decisions especially if Parliament are people with vested interests counter to the country. Philippines got a lot of those lurking around even in 1823. I had to neutralize them. Having a parliament in 1823 will be like 1890s with Magdalo vs Magdiwang faction of Katipunan. Or the factions fighting Luna vs Aguinaldo. Here it would be other rich Filipinos. Philippines cannot afford those kind of problems.
Civil wars aren't pretty early on as it would be too costly.
People will eventually want representation. It is the reality of an educated populace.
Later on, I may depending on what happens. But for now, it is absolute monarchy/de facto Emperor .
Mexico is wanked at this timeline though. They still have Texas and got an early California gold rush boost.
But Philippines isn't the same scenario as OTL Mexico.
Illustrado timeline very much out of the way. The OTL Philippines wanted to be treated like a province which the Spanish refused. Those educated people were educated in Europe, catholic schools in the Philippines, treated badly by the Spanish and heavily discriminated.
Education in the ATL Philippines varies. Public education is very collectivist while private schools/religious schools are still doing the same as OTL. Legal discrimination would be non existent except jokes among themselves. So you can see a more dutiful, loyal poor, middle class who went to public school, while the rich are the ones potential to rebel due to exposure on more liberal education. It is like Rizal/Luna wanting to rebel/reform but they have no followers since the poor and middle class have a different mindset, treated well by the government.
Agreed with what you have said. I also thought Philippines should have centralized authoritarian government at its infancy/independence with a strongman type of leader (esp with our tendencies for regionalism hence different interests). Andres is good for now with his policies, trying to consolidate his authority and that of his government over the archipelago. Question later who would rule after Andres? To ensure his legacy (esp with the education), he might choose a military stateperson like him or if we go hereditary, his son/daughter (I'm leaning towards son) will be raised to continue his legacy. I'm a little afraid that the next generation, profiting from the new riches and thriving economy, stable government will want to join the colonial empire building to emulate the Great Powers of the time as to prove their worth. This happens somewhere in 1850-1900s, when colonialism is as its peak.
I believe in this ATL, they are starting to do this colonialism with Borneo and Brunei? Treating the Borneo/Brunei natives under polo y servico system which has the lot of potential for abuse. It kinda amused me right now cause if Borneo gains independence from Phils, they will see Philippines as the colonizer as much as Philippines sees Japan and Spain in OTL. Unless, Philippines employs the same colonial tactics of US had done to it in OTL...
So........Colony to Colonizer is in sight? SEA is such a vulnerable spot (hello Dutch East Indies!)
Novales was born in 1800. With his life in danger, (I mean he was almost assassinated multiple times already). He should be looking for a clear successor in 1850s-1870s.
Philippine emperor is a de facto emperor during this time period. Similar to the Roman emperors. No written rules who gets what. Children can assume so can his generals. There are a lot of would be successors. But by 1843, the government culture is very meritocratic. The army, navy, civil service expects someone capable.
For colonial empire building, it depends on what will Philippines have by that time. But places that Philippines did not have in OTL are like Bonin islands, Pearl harbor and San Francisco, most of Borneo. That is already a lot considering the population, 1 million square kilometers for 4 million people in 1843.
Brunei is a protectorate. Philippines replaced Britain as protector in OTL. Same thing happened to Brunei same time period except it was Britain who was doing the attack.
In Borneo, Philippine Imperial government got nominal control(limited to certain places only). Those who are directly managing are the friars. Borneo is like Philippines in OTL. Friarocracy with a difference having a Catholic military order instead of the Spanish colonial government doing the grunt work. Another difference would be proximity. Its not like the Filipinos will be outnumbered in the long run.
Reading this again, is there any chance that Novales could demand Qing Formosa from China in the Treaty of Nanking? aside from the ports/silver/war reparations? Since he decided to attack China with Britain (might as well go on out on China bullying), would Britain let him do it? (Britain had their Hong Kong) He would have some valid claims since Spain used to claim Formosa before it was taken over by Dutch before it went back to Ming > Qing control again? Having a naval base/military base there could protect Philippines from the north. Or getting another island is too much already? (they already had their hands full with Mindanao and Borneo)
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One of my drafts for treaty of Nanking gave Quemoy to the Philippines. But that will increase cost/budget by stationing troops and fleet. Philippines is very near to China compared to Britain or even Singapore/India. Cheaper that the fleet stationed in Manila. Philippines had net positive on that treaty without Quemoy, just silver.
Formosa for now is out of the question due to large population 2M from POD, including cost to maintain stationed troops and base. There is still no threat from anyone wanting Formosa.
The stations taken were needed for Manila Acapulco trade, Bonin islands, Hawaii, San Francisco. Northern Borneo, Sarawak trade route to the British Singapore.
Dutch Borneo being the exception but can easily finance due to abundance of known resources while the Empire does not really maintain them but the Catholic Church. In Formosa you cannot do that due to large Chinese Population. That means the empire must expend a lot of resource for pacification and development.
Andres management is cost efficiency within his lifetime. He will not invest something that may or may not profit decades or hundred years from now. Will not venture unless the return on investment is larger like Dutch Borneo. That is why most of Mindanao and Taiwan was left out. They are not worth the time and money for now. By this time in OTL, the Spanish were going down Compostela valley thru Davao. This ATL, the policy for Carolians(OTL Lumads) was to arm and train them to counter the Islamic sultanates.
19. Industries and Infrastructure (Empire of the Philippines 1843)
Industries and Infrastructure (Empire of the Philippines 1843)
The Philippine economy grew from roughly the size of Kingdom Denmark in 1823 to twice the size of Danish economy or near the size of Sweden-Norway Kingdom in 1843.
Philippines’ main income generation was trade. Whaling in the Pacific increased as demand for whale oil in Manila increased. Mining gold in Luzon and Siargao amounted to 40 tons per annum. Tariffs were high except for the British (zero tariffs) as per agreement with Count Varela and the British in 1824. Excluding the British, Foreign trade was not allowed except in Manila.
The economy was mostly privatized. The government controlled several shipyards, arsenal but Andres did not prevent imports of ships or weapons, nor creation of local private shipyards. Education and Healthcare was also mostly run by the government but Andres let private schools, hospitals already running continue. Removing government monopolies and direct control on business was Andres’ way to appease plantation owners and business owners, to avoid further plots against him. It made his Imperial policies somewhat tolerable to those in power. The bureaucracy was also cheaper and did not stretch his Civil Service. He did not have to hire staff to run businesses, while the government still earns thru taxes.
Public Bath in major cities
Manila with a population of 200,000 is the most developed. It is the main trading port of the empire. It had a sewer system. The Aqueduct system started was made of bamboo then eventually improved to concrete/stone including an underground reservoir system. Public Baths, toilets, schools and hospitals initially started as Spanish legacy buildings or makeshift wood buildings, then improved to Pombaline buildings. Manila was one of the few places in the empire that had coke-fired blast furnaces for Hot blast, machine tools, millwrights, steam engines, textile machines. Imperial Arsenal Complex was located in Manila (OTL Santa Mesa district). 100 hectares of walled town inside Manila to test and manufacture ammunition, explosives, artillery and rifles.
With Philippine independence recognize by Spain, the empire saw no need to finance, build more ships and spread out the Imperial shipyards (in case Cavite falls). Marinduque and Masbate Imperial Shipyards were shut down due to heavy deforestation. Leyte, Butuan and Mindoro Imperial Shipyards were sold to private entities as the capability of those shipyards were to build small ships like cutter or sloops meant for chasing down Moro pirates. Shipyards in Bagatao Island and Donsol were shutdown to centralize Bicol shipbuilding in Visita de Santo Nino (OTL Pilar). Cavite, Lingayen(Pangasinan), Cebu shipyards were also retained.
Cavite City (OTL Cavite City, Noveleta, Kawit, and Imus) with a population of 60,000, centered its economy around the Cavite Imperial Shipyard and its own Naval Arsenal. The Shipyard employed 5,000 people by 1843. Outside the Shipyard, most of the facilities are to provide for needs of employees and family members. Commercial buildings, public baths, toilets, Hospitals, Schools confirmed with the building code, Pombaline style building. It had its own sewer and Aqueduct system similar to Manila. The Imperial Naval Academy was located within city limits.
The rest of Luzon’s manufacturing was different. Production centered around watermills, handmade, powered by animals or wood-burning. Blast furnaces used charcoal instead of coke for the production of wrought iron and pig iron. Watchmakers, Glassmakers and Clockmakers start to be common as local population obsessed with time starts to grow.
Ciudad del Santísimo Nombre de Jesus (OTL Cebu city), as the only other major city with a population of 60,000. Cebu Island had the only rail in the empire, from Mount Uling to Cebu City (15 kms) and 30 kms railway from Licos, West of Danao to Cebu City. The railway system was setup by British companies to gather coal from coal mines in Cebu, as increase demand for coal in Manila became profitable. The infrastructure in Cebu City was just as sophisticated and as extensive as in Cavite City.
Manufacturing outside Luzon and Cebu Islands shrank as governors and their respective landed elite focused their funding and manpower on cash crops while manufactured goods from Britain and Manila outcompeted the local manufactured goods.
There was a road network disparity in the Philippines. Macadamized roads were well placed in the whole of Luzon, Bohol and Cebu. All other islands - Mindoro, Marinduque, Masbate, Leyte, Iloilo, Panay to Palawan, Borneo, Northern Mindanao had no Macadamized roads. They had rural dirt roads while stone roads were limited within towns.
The main transportation was still by water. Luzon’s rivers were improved the past 20 years by removing obstructions, straightening curves, widening, deepening and building navigation locks. Road transportation complemented what water transportation could not provide. Transport was still faster going from one port to another even if it is in the same island or interisland.
Nipa huts made and moved by the rural community
Public Infrastructure outside the major three cities were either made of bamboo or wood or in best cases buildings built during Spanish colonial times. Building and maintenance with wood was cheap. These wooden buildings are more similar to nipa huts built by the community for free. Public baths and toilets were also made of bamboo and wood. Public baths and Toilets are similar to wooden rural outdoor toilets, showers that we know today. There were no Aqueducts and Sewers in those areas. Water was taken from wells or rivers. As the economy grew, funds and manpower freed up, after Manila and Cavite, other Luzon towns gradually improved their public infrastructure. In places where the governor siphon funds sent by Manila, public infrastructure does not conform with the building code or worse non-existent.
Filipino Batalan/Washing Area outside the cities
Hygiene was a big deal for Filipinos even before Spanish colonization. By independence, washing was reinforced by the government. As noted by Pedro Chirino who was in the Philippines from 1590 to 1602:
“They bathe at all hours indiscriminately, for pleasure and cleanliness, and not even women who have just delivered avoid bathing or fail to immerse a newly born infant in the river itself or in the cold springs… They bathe crouching and almost sitting down, out of modesty, with water up to their neck and with extreme care not to expose themselves, even if there is no one around to see them… The most usual hour for the bath is at sunset, for since they cease their work then they take to the river for a restful and cooling bath, taking back for their daily needs a vessel of water on their way home… At the door of every house they keep a jar of water and whosoever comes in, whether a stranger or one of the household, draws some water from it to wash his feet before entering, especially during the muddy season. This they do with great ease by rubbing one foot against the other, the water pouring down through the floor of the house, which is all made of bamboo slats laid very close together like a grate.”
The Philippine economy grew from roughly the size of Kingdom Denmark in 1823 to twice the size of Danish economy or near the size of Sweden-Norway Kingdom in 1843.
Philippines’ main income generation was trade. Whaling in the Pacific increased as demand for whale oil in Manila increased. Mining gold in Luzon and Siargao amounted to 40 tons per annum. Tariffs were high except for the British (zero tariffs) as per agreement with Count Varela and the British in 1824. Excluding the British, Foreign trade was not allowed except in Manila.
The economy was mostly privatized. The government controlled several shipyards, arsenal but Andres did not prevent imports of ships or weapons, nor creation of local private shipyards. Education and Healthcare was also mostly run by the government but Andres let private schools, hospitals already running continue. Removing government monopolies and direct control on business was Andres’ way to appease plantation owners and business owners, to avoid further plots against him. It made his Imperial policies somewhat tolerable to those in power. The bureaucracy was also cheaper and did not stretch his Civil Service. He did not have to hire staff to run businesses, while the government still earns thru taxes.
Public Bath in major cities
Manila with a population of 200,000 is the most developed. It is the main trading port of the empire. It had a sewer system. The Aqueduct system started was made of bamboo then eventually improved to concrete/stone including an underground reservoir system. Public Baths, toilets, schools and hospitals initially started as Spanish legacy buildings or makeshift wood buildings, then improved to Pombaline buildings. Manila was one of the few places in the empire that had coke-fired blast furnaces for Hot blast, machine tools, millwrights, steam engines, textile machines. Imperial Arsenal Complex was located in Manila (OTL Santa Mesa district). 100 hectares of walled town inside Manila to test and manufacture ammunition, explosives, artillery and rifles.
With Philippine independence recognize by Spain, the empire saw no need to finance, build more ships and spread out the Imperial shipyards (in case Cavite falls). Marinduque and Masbate Imperial Shipyards were shut down due to heavy deforestation. Leyte, Butuan and Mindoro Imperial Shipyards were sold to private entities as the capability of those shipyards were to build small ships like cutter or sloops meant for chasing down Moro pirates. Shipyards in Bagatao Island and Donsol were shutdown to centralize Bicol shipbuilding in Visita de Santo Nino (OTL Pilar). Cavite, Lingayen(Pangasinan), Cebu shipyards were also retained.
Cavite City (OTL Cavite City, Noveleta, Kawit, and Imus) with a population of 60,000, centered its economy around the Cavite Imperial Shipyard and its own Naval Arsenal. The Shipyard employed 5,000 people by 1843. Outside the Shipyard, most of the facilities are to provide for needs of employees and family members. Commercial buildings, public baths, toilets, Hospitals, Schools confirmed with the building code, Pombaline style building. It had its own sewer and Aqueduct system similar to Manila. The Imperial Naval Academy was located within city limits.
The rest of Luzon’s manufacturing was different. Production centered around watermills, handmade, powered by animals or wood-burning. Blast furnaces used charcoal instead of coke for the production of wrought iron and pig iron. Watchmakers, Glassmakers and Clockmakers start to be common as local population obsessed with time starts to grow.
Ciudad del Santísimo Nombre de Jesus (OTL Cebu city), as the only other major city with a population of 60,000. Cebu Island had the only rail in the empire, from Mount Uling to Cebu City (15 kms) and 30 kms railway from Licos, West of Danao to Cebu City. The railway system was setup by British companies to gather coal from coal mines in Cebu, as increase demand for coal in Manila became profitable. The infrastructure in Cebu City was just as sophisticated and as extensive as in Cavite City.
Manufacturing outside Luzon and Cebu Islands shrank as governors and their respective landed elite focused their funding and manpower on cash crops while manufactured goods from Britain and Manila outcompeted the local manufactured goods.
There was a road network disparity in the Philippines. Macadamized roads were well placed in the whole of Luzon, Bohol and Cebu. All other islands - Mindoro, Marinduque, Masbate, Leyte, Iloilo, Panay to Palawan, Borneo, Northern Mindanao had no Macadamized roads. They had rural dirt roads while stone roads were limited within towns.
The main transportation was still by water. Luzon’s rivers were improved the past 20 years by removing obstructions, straightening curves, widening, deepening and building navigation locks. Road transportation complemented what water transportation could not provide. Transport was still faster going from one port to another even if it is in the same island or interisland.
Nipa huts made and moved by the rural community
Public Infrastructure outside the major three cities were either made of bamboo or wood or in best cases buildings built during Spanish colonial times. Building and maintenance with wood was cheap. These wooden buildings are more similar to nipa huts built by the community for free. Public baths and toilets were also made of bamboo and wood. Public baths and Toilets are similar to wooden rural outdoor toilets, showers that we know today. There were no Aqueducts and Sewers in those areas. Water was taken from wells or rivers. As the economy grew, funds and manpower freed up, after Manila and Cavite, other Luzon towns gradually improved their public infrastructure. In places where the governor siphon funds sent by Manila, public infrastructure does not conform with the building code or worse non-existent.
Filipino Batalan/Washing Area outside the cities
Hygiene was a big deal for Filipinos even before Spanish colonization. By independence, washing was reinforced by the government. As noted by Pedro Chirino who was in the Philippines from 1590 to 1602:
“They bathe at all hours indiscriminately, for pleasure and cleanliness, and not even women who have just delivered avoid bathing or fail to immerse a newly born infant in the river itself or in the cold springs… They bathe crouching and almost sitting down, out of modesty, with water up to their neck and with extreme care not to expose themselves, even if there is no one around to see them… The most usual hour for the bath is at sunset, for since they cease their work then they take to the river for a restful and cooling bath, taking back for their daily needs a vessel of water on their way home… At the door of every house they keep a jar of water and whosoever comes in, whether a stranger or one of the household, draws some water from it to wash his feet before entering, especially during the muddy season. This they do with great ease by rubbing one foot against the other, the water pouring down through the floor of the house, which is all made of bamboo slats laid very close together like a grate.”
Not a wise move versus the British. British is the source of foreign capital/private investments and technical expertise. They are the reason why the Santa Mesa Arsenal improved production or the industries in Manila and Cebu exist at all(expertise came from them even if funding came from Philippines). While Philippines got a lot of British advisors in the navy, government. There was too much good relationship built in the past 20 years that cancelling that British tariff Exemption would not be easy even for the Filipinos. They even bled together in the Opium war.
Even if Andres tried, the British will just move in 12-24 ships of the line in Manila to force it back with a lot more stipulations. And he knows it.
Oh! Does this open up the possibility that if Britain leaves its isolation phase (1900s timeframe, unless more flying butterflies incoming), it's first alliance in the Asian region will be Phil, instead of Japan? Hoping here, so if Japan also joins in the alliance, then all three have the distinction of being island countries with empires in name/titles. The Island 3.
It seems unlikely, though that Britain gets out of isolation,
I would love to see Japan-UK Alliance vs a Philippines-Qing-Korea Alliance (Both modernize empires) war
at this TL's events? Philippines already attacks Qing China with Britain. I don't think Qing will want to ally with Phil after the Opium war. but.......Sun Yat-Sen's ROC? that's a different kind of beast and a possible butterfly. We'll see hahaha
If Yuan Shikai is out of the Way and the original ROC/KMT or AKA that, comes to controll all of china and it becomes that of a power. I might see a Republican movement in the Philippines going through. And everyone being afriad of China to flex its military muscles
True, China did always have that potential. If it gets its act together and really unify as one, it will be a force to be reckoned with haha. But this is still 1840s. ROC will not happen for 2 more generations (heck Yuan and Sun are not even born yet at this time!) A lot can still happen from 1840s to 1910s.
No official alliance more of combined forces to deal with Qing during Opium war.
It is similar in OTL on how the 2nd Opium war happened when Britain, France and US helped each other in China.
I wonder, will the Philippines by 1900 have a much larger population than IOTL 1900? You know, due to all the development and stuff.