If the LDS / Mormon Church was never founded, and there wasn't another similar religion to replace it, what effects would this have on America and westward settlement and expansion? Without mormons moving out west to Utah how would it and other parts of the Southwest develop? How would the borders of the states be affected out west? When would this alternate "Utah" achieve statehood? How are other parts of the United States affected? Are the changes significant enough to have a broader global influence or are they just regulated to the United States?
Effects on American with no LDS Church
- Thread starter The_Russian
- Start date
I think Utah would be basically uninhabited, and so might Nevada, northern AZ and alot of Idaho for starters. Whatever controversies surround Mormonism over the centuries, other than local Native American societies who had already been there a long time, they were the only people who actually wanted to move there and develop the region in large numbers.
Last edited:
I suspect the only significant differences would be 1) different western state borders, 2) fewer people around the Great Salt Lake, and 3) the transcontinental railroad take an extra month or two, as having a hard working established workforce at that point was quite convenient.
Maybe the Space Shuttle Boosters are actually made on the coast, without segments....
Seriously, I don't see any major change.
Maybe the Space Shuttle Boosters are actually made on the coast, without segments....
Seriously, I don't see any major change.
Utah might well become a state sooner, and be larger. A not insignificant part of Utah becoming a state so late was the controversy over Mormon allowing polygamy.
Thats probably what I'm most curious about. Would Utah include Nevada? Would it be a perfect square taking away part of Wyoming? Or could we see a big "Deseret" type state out west because of lower populations?
AMEN!
One possibility.
NE and KS extend west a bit, so there's a straight line running from Canada past OK.
*CO moves west and north a bit, and splits UT with NV. Wyoming doesn't likely exist, with the southern bit annexed to *CO and *NV, with the bulk of it split between *MT and *ID.
So, two less states.
Considering the proliferation of religious movements at the time, I fundamentally believe that if the LDS Church didn't exist, something else would've taken its place. (Not theologically, but temporally). Like, if Joseph Smith doesn't "discover" the golden plates....Sidney Rigdon was still a popular preacher and orator, and it was his decision to embrace the Book of Mormon that really created the the basis for the LDS movement.
People were looking for a charismatic person to lead them. Perhaps other restorationist Churches would be more popular (Adventists, Campbellites, etc).
Furthermore, Hebraic Indigenous theory was verrrrry popular at the time. Considering the zeitgeist, I find the emergence of Mormonism both fascinating and entirely predictable.
People were looking for a charismatic person to lead them. Perhaps other restorationist Churches would be more popular (Adventists, Campbellites, etc).
Furthermore, Hebraic Indigenous theory was verrrrry popular at the time. Considering the zeitgeist, I find the emergence of Mormonism both fascinating and entirely predictable.
Last edited:
Something resembling OTL Utah would be created simply to fill out the empty spaces, but it might not become a state until the early 20th century and would most likely be a failed state like OTL Nevada before it legalized quickie divorces and casinos. An interesting twist is that no LDS Utah might retard or prevent the founding of Las Vegas since the Vegas oasis was a key stopping point on the Mormon trail from Salt Lake to San Bernadino. But if no LDS there is overall little if any impact on 19th/20th century America as a whole.
John C. Frémont made a scientific expedition to the Great Salt Lake in 1843 as part of his larger western surveys. Joseph Smith acquired advanced knowledge of these surveys through friends and allies in Washington, but Frémont's report was published shortly after and was absolutely glowing about the Great Salt Lake (which is an approximately 8,000 sq km body of water, by far the largest lake in the USA between the Mississippi River and the Pacific Ocean) and it's surrounding region. Settlement would be delayed a few years and would be lower, probably, but after gold is discovered in California, Utah is going to receive settlers.
I think - ironically enough - that America as a whole might be more "mormon-like"
As durante said, theological ideas like native american being the ISOTed israelites and the US a Promised Land of sorts were very popular
So without a singular group like the mormons like your thread proposes to represent all those religious oddities and end up persecuted and discredited for following them, I believe it's very possible those ideas would have persisted on this zeitgeist for longer and perhaps Evangelical Christianity in America today would look a lot more like the Latter-Day Saints Church do
As durante said, theological ideas like native american being the ISOTed israelites and the US a Promised Land of sorts were very popular
So without a singular group like the mormons like your thread proposes to represent all those religious oddities and end up persecuted and discredited for following them, I believe it's very possible those ideas would have persisted on this zeitgeist for longer and perhaps Evangelical Christianity in America today would look a lot more like the Latter-Day Saints Church do
There might not be State of Utah since its population would be much smaller. Probably it would be divided between Nevada and Colorado (at least it would look very good on map assuming there being otherwise about same state borders than in OTL). California might has smaller population than in OTL. In other hand there might be bit higher native percentage than in OTL.
There probably still would be some equalements for geni.com and myheritage.com.
There probably still would be some equalements for geni.com and myheritage.com.
Last edited:
I meant by American settlers. I will edit my original comment.Indeginous people:
I find your claim hard to believe.
Wow.
So, people believed (some) Native America Indians were “lost” tribes of Israelites? I’m guessing people wanted to believe this because it makes both them and America special. Now, did Mormons treat American Indians in Utah significantly better than settlers normally treat natives?
So more along the lines of what the Kansas, Nebraska, and Utah territories?
So like the Jefferson Territory?
Both seem to be realistic possibilities, I suppose its a matter of how populated the region becomes. If as durante mentioned, Frémont's belief was true and it was a good place for American settlers and more did move there I lean on the second map.
With 1-2 less states is it possible that there could be any states made for political reasons to "balance" or give advantage to the incumbent party? I know this was partially the case in North Dakota, so I'm curious if some things such as a divided California / Texas, or Lincoln in the Northwest could occur as a butterfly. Or is it more likely for the opposite to occur with the Dakotas or New Mexico territory staying united?
Also, what is the fate of Vegas in this? Without the mormons does it even develop? Is it still home to gambling? Is it in this alternate Nevada / Utah or Arizona / Greater New Mexico?
@The_Russian well I've just listened to more podcasts on the early history of Mormonism than I'd care to admit...why don't you give us a specific PoD and let's see what we can come up with? How do you suggest that the LDS Church isn't founded?