Effects of a Failed Operation Sealion in British Popular Culture

[TofuTanker]

If Operation Sealion was launched and failed in summer/autumn 1940, what could be the resulting influence on British culture? For one thing, there would probably be no Battle of Britain movie, or any BoB idealization for that matter, because the RAF wouldn't have really stopped the invasion. Instead, it would have been the Army that valiantly defended the glorious British isles from the Germans.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[MerryPrankster]

Or the Navy that shredded the German fleet, leaving whatever forces that made it to shore to wither on the vine.

 

[nastle]

^ what "fleet" it would have been a massacre of innocents !
(no disrespect intended to the german seamen of WW2 who fought bravely against impossible odds)

 

[Mumby]

It ends up like the Spanish Armada and the Napoleonic Wars. It reinforces our Britishness, you might see a flurry of post-was althist about a successful Sealion, and Winston Churchill might be Prime Minister after the war.

 

[McPee]

If Operation Sealion was launched and failed in summer/autumn 1940, what could be the resulting influence on British culture? For one thing, there would probably be no Battle of Britain movie, or any BoB idealization for that matter, because the RAF wouldn't have really stopped the invasion. Instead, it would have been the Army that valiantly defended the glorious British isles from the Germans.

Any thoughts on this?

There would have been a more epic BoB movie, rolling in the contributions of all the services into one. The main effect would have been a dramatic reworking of the 1066 legacy, such that the fact of a defence on land against Germany would have erased the sense of defeat handed out by William; this would almost certainly have made many of the British even more pompous and insular than was the case - which was bad enough.

This could have impacted on Britain's aloofness from Europe post-war being more entrenched than it was, though this assumes the UK was economically able to persue a more independent policy. Either way, apart from a 5 hour national epic film... history would have taken a more prominent role in education and popular culture because fights-to-the finish on home ground as opposed to the relatively abstract elements ( air and sea ) burn themselves into policy and consiousness to a greater depth... think France's historic antagonism towards Germany because of this more tangible experience; the Morgenthau plan more keenly supported by Britain.

All in all, Britain's cultural landscape would evolve with something of a blank slate in this regard, having to relate away from a millenium-old perception of virginal, untained territory. I can imagine more dramatic devergence in the arts between left and right, as each current of thought over-reacts as it were in a bid to escape from the conclusion that - whatever now happens - Britain has changed forever.

Sorry if this is vague, but it is an interesting thought of yours ... culturally speaking.

 

[Meadow]

Dad's Army would not be the quiet joke it is today. The nickname itself would probably be quickly forgotten after the first few curbstomps by German troops.

 

[Jape]

If British industrial cities suffer even greater damage thanks to German air surperiority and an invasion, it might work out in Britain's favour post-war, namely as wholesale reconstruction on continental lines will see a far more modern industrial base.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Dad's Army would not be the quiet joke it is today. The nickname itself would probably be quickly forgotten after the first few curbstomps by German troops.

That depends on the circumstances of where the engagements take place. They'd be more likely to defeat paratroopers without heavy iron in support than stop a Panzer division on the beach.

 

[Meadow]

That depends on the circumstances of where the engagements take place. They'd be more likely to defeat paratroopers without heavy iron in support than stop a Panzer division on the beach.

In late 1940, though, IIRC the Home Guard/LDV was still underequipped and very undertrained. I'd still back the Fallschirmsjager over them in a straight fight - though I take your point that they might stop an active paradrop by capturing/killing men as they landed. Against any organised unit that's fresh (so in the first few days of the invasion), though, the results wouldn't be pretty.

 

[modelcitizen]

fewer pre-WW2 buildings in Britain.

 

[Mumby]

We'd end up acting even more superior towards the French. I mean my dad STILL calls the French 'surrender monkeys'. Its not factually correct but its what a lot of people think. The French sort of say we never had to deal with a German invasion. If we had, and we defeated it, the French defence against these attacks would be weaker, and we would glory in the 'fact' that we were the only Western Europeans not to collaborate with the Nazis. The whole period would be glorified out of all proportion.

 

[stodge]

Post-Sealion

Two disjointed thoughts - first, there would be a number of movies made about the aborted invasion. The first would be from Ealing Studios in the 1950s and feature stars like John Mills, Trevor Howard, Noel Coward and others. You would have something like "The Defence of Ditchling" about the infantry who held up the German advance at Ditchling Beacon.

Others would focus on the role of the RAF and the Navy such as a different "In Which We Serve" about a patrol boat and its actions during the invasion.

In the 70s, you'd get the Hollywood versions such as "Battle For Britain" or "Invasion" - panoramic productions showing the invasion from both sides with all-star British and American and European casts. Think Roger Moore, Sean Connery, Klaus von Bulow and others.

More poignant would be the graveyards and museums across south-east England such as at Maidstone, known as "Britain's Verdun" where the German tanks were ambushed and destroyed in the bend of the Medway or at Dover where the local museum tells the story of the battle for the Castle and the heroic defiance of Admiral Ramsey.

Less well known is the museum at Rye which not only commemorates the first British casualties when the German paratroopers landed but also tells the story of the days under German occupation and the brutal reprisals against civilians before the Germans were forced to surrender.

 

[The Red]

In late 1940, though, IIRC the Home Guard/LDV was still underequipped and very undertrained. I'd still back the Fallschirmsjager over them in a straight fight - though I take your point that they might stop an active paradrop by capturing/killing men as they landed. Against any organised unit that's fresh (so in the first few days of the invasion), though, the results wouldn't be pretty.

The paratroopers would hold their own against the Home Guard until they ran out of ammunition and other supplies when no help comes. Of course in the movie version, the plucky old men and young boys beat them before this happened, even though they were out gunned and outnumbered by those evil krauts.

 

[Meadow]

The paratroopers would hold their own against the Home Guard until they ran out of ammunition and other supplies when no help comes. Of course in the movie version, the plucky old men and young boys beat them before this happened, even though they were out gunned and outnumbered by those evil krauts.

I think they'd walk through the Home Guard. The late 1940 LDV/Home Guard was barely armed properly (remember the broom handles with knives on the end were not an invention of Jimmy Perry) and while they may have received their M1917s by that point, would get routed by a disciplined unit.

I'm no Axiswanker, you don't have to be unpatriotic to admit that the Home Guard, especially in its early stages, would have been little more than a nuisance to invading forces if encountered alone (of course, bolstering regular troops behind the lines, guarding fuel depots etc, it could well have had a valuable and worthy input).

 

[andys]

Two disjointed thoughts - first, there would be a number of movies made about the aborted invasion. The first would be from Ealing Studios in the 1950s...

In the 70s, you'd get the Hollywood versions such as "Battle For Britain" or "Invasion" - panoramic productions showing the invasion from both sides with all-star British and American and European casts. Think Roger Moore, Sean Connery, Klaus von Bulow and others.

And then at the turn of the century, the Hollywood re-remake would centre entirely on how a handful of Yanks were the folks who REALLY defeated Sealion,with the Brits barely getting a mention, other than as bumbling, clueless Colonel Blimp types thus p*ssing off the entire population of the UK?

 

[Prince Charon]

And then at the turn of the century, the Hollywood re-remake would centre entirely on how a handful of Yanks were the folks who REALLY defeated Sealion,with the Brits barely getting a mention, other than as bumbling, clueless Colonel Blimp types thus p*ssing off the entire population of the UK?

Sadly, I can believe that.

If the invasion took place later, when the Home Guard was better equipped, they'd have done better against the paratroopers, at least.

Also, while the Home Guard Pikes weren't that great, they could have been used in traps. Also, they weren't delivered until 1942. If they'd had it in 1940, they'd have been less annoyed about it, as they had much lower expectations.

The Home Guard pike was issued in early 1942 as the result of a note Winston Churchill wrote to the War Office in June 1941 ordering that "every man must have a weapon of some kind, be it only a mace or pike."

Unfortunately the War Office took this instruction literally and in July 1941 ordered the production of 250,000 long metal tubes with surplus sword bayonets welded in one end.

​

These weapons would have been o.k. in 1940 but by 1942 the Home Guard expected proper weapons. The production and issue of the pikes generated an almost universal feeling of anger and disgust from the ranks of the Home Guard, demoralised the men and led to questions being asked in both Houses of Parliament.

​

In many instances the pikes never left Home Guard stores as area and unit commanders were aware of how the men would react.

The lesson is, don't tell a bureaucrat something that could be misinterpreted if taken literally.

Since its relevant, here's the front page of the Home Guard site.

 

[The Red]

I think they'd walk through the Home Guard. The late 1940 LDV/Home Guard was barely armed properly (remember the broom handles with knives on the end were not an invention of Jimmy Perry) and while they may have received their M1917s by that point, would get routed by a disciplined unit.

I'm no Axiswanker, you don't have to be unpatriotic to admit that the Home Guard, especially in its early stages, would have been little more than a nuisance to invading forces if encountered alone (of course, bolstering regular troops behind the lines, guarding fuel depots etc, it could well have had a valuable and worthy input).

Oh they would have been massacred, there are a lot of ex-Home Guard who will openly admit that now. However they would have participated in battles with Paratroops along with the regular army and a few of them would have been around when they finally surrendered. A few pictures of old men leading away prisoners by bayonet would have probably been sufficient to create the image that they had actually beaten the paratroopers on their own.

 

[NoOneFamous]

I can see a much larger post war British Army

 

[Sam R.]

Could people turn their mind to the British Army's occupation and DeNazification of Austria and Germany for a moment?

I'm expecting that the number of "un-authorised" reprisal massacres which have a remarkable lack of evidence when it comes to arrest soldiers for their murder of civilians and German forces to be significant; and, a bloody hidden shame in Post War memory.

Sometime in the 1970s a young labourite or marxist child of the establishment uncovers this network and produces a best selling monograph on British murders of "Nazi" soldiers and civilians.

This produces a scandal given the depth of emotion about the "Home Guard murders" in 1940.

yours,
Sam R.

 

[Michele]

fewer pre-WW2 buildings in Britain.

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. You'd surely have fewer pre-WWII buildings on the coast, between Dover and Brighton. But I guess you'd have more pre-WWII buildings in, say, London, which has much more acreage than all the coastal towns put together.

If you read this
A Better Show in 1940

you'll see that while the Blitz may be more violent in this timeline, the chance of V-Waffen being around later is vanishingly small. So are the chances of intermittent, continuing bombing and of the Baby Blitz.