Early end of HRE-Spanish union

Jan Olbracht

PoD is vert easy-some unfortunate accident happens to Emperor Charles V, resulting in his premature death in summer 1527, ending personal union between Spain and Holy Roman Empire much earlier than IOTL.

So baby Felipe II is heir of Spain and Burgundy (with Isabella of Portugal as regent in Spain and Charles' aunt Margaret as regent in Burgundy I guess), while Ferdinand is getting Imperial throne much earlier than IOTL.

So HRE would not have absent emperor, as Ferdinand would have no reason to wander from Germany to Spain and back. How would he deal with reformation? Also, with earlier split there would be less coordination between Spanish and Imperial troops, which should be good for France? What are your thoughts?
 

Jan Olbracht

isabella said:
Maria Manuela as OTL, then likely Maria of Viseu after her (if she still die as OTL). Marguerite of France is extremely unlikely
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Or one of Ferdinand's daughters. IOTL Ferdinand was against such match, because he feared, that Charles would try to disinherit his sons in favour of Felipe. Dead Charles certainly would not make such attempts so Ferdinand is not going to oppose such marriage.

BTW what about Max II and João Manuel? Their wives too do not exist ITTL.
 

isabella

Jan Olbracht said:
Or one of Ferdinand's daughters. IOTL Ferdinand was against such match, because he feared, that Charles would try to disinherit his sons in favour of Felipe. Dead Charles certainly would not make such attempts so Ferdinand is not going to oppose such marriage.
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As second wife maybe, but Maria Manuela would still be the first
Jan Olbracht said:
BTW what about Max II and João Manuel? Their wives too do not exist ITTL.
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Margaret of France or Catherine of Poland (as Isabella here would likely marry to Francis I or the Dauphin or Orleans) for Max and I haVe no idea for Joao Manuel (pretty likely who he would die unmarried here)
 

Jan Olbracht

Going back to politics... Wouldn't both Spain and HRE be better than IOTL without wandering monarch? Especially HRE with its religious ferment.
 

Janprimus

Jan Olbracht said:
PoD is vert easy-some unfortunate accident happens to Emperor Charles V, resulting in his premature death in summer 1527, ending personal union between Spain and Holy Roman Empire much earlier than IOTL.

So baby Felipe II is heir of Spain and Burgundy (with Isabella of Portugal as regent in Spain and Charles' aunt Margaret as regent in Burgundy I guess), while Ferdinand is getting Imperial throne much earlier than IOTL.

So HRE would not have absent emperor, as Ferdinand would have no reason to wander from Germany to Spain and back. How would he deal with reformation? Also, with earlier split there would be less coordination between Spanish and Imperial troops, which should be good for France? What are your thoughts?
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IMHO a bit too soon. If Charles would leave both Philip and Mary, then Philip could still get Castile & Aragon, but Mary here also betrothed to the eldest son and heir of Ferdinand, Maximilian, is much more likely to get the Burgundian Lands as a dowry, since Philip lacks the personal connection with the region, which Charles had.

Also AFAIK Ferdinand tended to be more pragmatic with Protestants than Charles V. Though the main difference also was the means they had to their disposal.
 
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HeavyMetal

Castilians would throw a month long celebration after getting rid of him. And they would be right in doing it.
 
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Janprimus

Jan Olbracht said:
Going back to politics... Wouldn't both Spain and HRE be better than IOTL without wandering monarch? Especially HRE with its religious ferment.
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I have some doubts. Especially in their early years Charles V as Holy Roman Emperor and Ferdinand of Austria as his representative in the Empire, eventually formalized by his election as King of the Romans, were quite a team to defend the interests of the house of Habsburg.
Charles V travelling a lot was a problem OTOH Philip II almost never leaving Spain didn't work either, this neglect costed Philip II the loyalty of the elite in the Burgundian Lands. One of the political reasons, which contributed to the Dutch Revolt. Religion was only a part of the problem and a thing, which also divided the discontent in the Burgundian Lands.

Hence why giving the Burgundian Lands to Mary of Spain (the sister of Philip II) and a betrothal to Maximilian II, the eldest son and heir of Ferdinand I, so a de facto transfer to the Austrian branch, wouldn't be the worst option. Like with Isabella Clara Eugenia Castille & Aragon would still have some ties with the Burgundian Lands and indirectly the lands of the Austrian cousins of the monarch of Castille & Aragon. Politics will dictate that the Spanish Habsburgs can't just totally abandon their relatives in Austria & Burgundy, it could be less of a drain than IOTL, but the ties, which some here seem to wish to be severed, won't be. They are allies, and both want to keep France in check.
Ironically a somewhat less powerful Holy Roman Emperor, will both need to approach things a bit more pragmatic, like what Ferdinand of Austria did IOTL, Charles V having the might of the Spanish kingdoms and Burgundy to his disposal could afford to be more of a hardliner. OTOH not as much as one thinks, even though he condemned Luther, he was political savvy enough to not touch him in Wittenberg and challenge his protector prince-elector Frederick of Saxony.
 
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Janprimus

isabella said:
Quite unlikely.
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I agree. @HeavyMetal why the hate for Charles of Ghent? Celebrations, they will mourn their Emperor, there was a bumpy start with the Burgundian entourage he brought with him, when he arrived from there. After that things stabilized, killing him off sooner, also prevents some of the future mistakes Charles would make.
 
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GenghisKhanfan

GenghisKhanfan

Jan Olbracht said:
PoD is vert easy-some unfortunate accident happens to Emperor Charles V, resulting in his premature death in summer 1527, ending personal union between Spain and Holy Roman Empire much earlier than IOTL.

So baby Felipe II is heir of Spain and Burgundy (with Isabella of Portugal as regent in Spain and Charles' aunt Margaret as regent in Burgundy I guess), while Ferdinand is getting Imperial throne much earlier than IOTL.

So HRE would not have absent emperor, as Ferdinand would have no reason to wander from Germany to Spain and back. How would he deal with reformation? Also, with earlier split there would be less coordination between Spanish and Imperial troops, which should be good for France? What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
How would Ferdinand deal with the Reformation?
Likely, he'd be more conciliatory toward the Protestants than Charles V was. At this juncture, Ferdinand would be more concerned with the threat of Turkish invasion than with the internal strife caused by the Protestants. He might even take the more conciliatory course with the Protestants in order to prevent the possible coalescence of some sort of alliance between the Protestants and the Ottoman Sultan, which was a very real threat for him.

Would the earlier split of the Spanish and Imperial offices and the resulting division in military coordination benefit France?
I don't think this would change much from OTL as there was little coordination between them to begin with. While Spain was having issues in the Low Countries, the Empire appeared to have little interest in assisting Spain as it was likely their commercial prosperity would have been thrown into chaos, not to mention the delicate peace between the Catholic and Protestant camps. But it is possible that an earlier split would open the doors for France that were never opened in OTL. France might show less interest in the Empire and focus more on breaking the Hapsburg "encirclement" through the easiest areas: The Netherlands and Spain proper.

A less likely but equally plausible scenario would be that France would be emboldened to contest the Imperial election by putting up a candidate from either the Bourbon dynasty or a pliant puppet princeling who could then be persuaded to abdicate in favor of the French candidate. Without the connection with Spain, the Empire would be less able to prevent such an event.
 

BlueFlowwer

If Charles V dies in 1528, after Maria's birth, then Isabella of Portugal is gonna be regent for toddler Philip. And I can see her agreeing to give the Low Countries as her daughters dowry. And without several childbirths, she's also likely to survive for longer.
 

isabella

BlueFlowwer said:
If Charles V dies in 1528, after Maria's birth, then Isabella of Portugal is gonna be regent for toddler Philip. And I can see her agreeing to give the Low Countries as her daughters dowry. And without several childbirths, she's also likely to survive for longer.
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True. Maria would marry her cousin Maximilian and get the Burgundian inheritance as dowry if Isabella is the one to choose
 
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