Earliest possible unified Germany?

What is the earliest date that a state (not the HRE) could unite most of the German states into one nation?

A union of states is acceptable but it must be relatively cohesive.

Well, several answers are contained in your question.

One possibility is that you have no HRE founded by the ottonian dynasty. What long prevented Germany from successfully implementing a unification dynasty was precisely the imperial structure of the HRE. The HRE was much too diverse and this structure mechanically led to a dispersion of power. Imperial structures are contradictory with nation-building.

Have for example the duchy of Lorraine remain under the control of the carolingian dynasty in the early tenth century, and have the king of Germany not take control of the kingdoms of Italy and Burgundy, and I think you create favourable conditions for a national unification of the german principalities.

And if you keep Otto I as founder of the HRE, then you have to wait until the 19th century and choose between the catholic Habsburg or the protestant Hohenzollern. It does not change much from our timeline.
 
Over-powerful vassals are going to remain a problem until gunpowder weapons become powerful enough to take care of castles: the French kings weren't really able to finally put paid to Burgundies and such until after the 15th century expulsion of the English (A hundred-odd years of war with the English probably helped create a French proto-nationalism, come to think of it).

Not sure why Imperial structures are inherently more troublesome for creating a territorial basis for the monarchy than French-type feudalism http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/france-growth.jpg :the Ottonians were able to draw on broad resources and create powerful armies in spite of them, the HRE didn't really become an ineffectual thing until later on.

Bruce
 
So killing the HRE is a must?

Well, given that the HRE was in existence for most of Germany's existence...

Even if we include the time after 1648 when the HRE was only a formality, at that point in history, you have neither the nationalism nor a state with the will to create a unified nation-state until post 1806.
 
During the reign of Augustus if the battle of the Teutoburg Forest hadn't occurred or had gone differently the Romans might have conquered the rest of Germany, thus unifying it under Roman rule for at least a while. The Roman Empire isn't the Holy Roman Empire so it counts within the restrictions of the thread.
 
Over-powerful vassals are going to remain a problem until gunpowder weapons become powerful enough to take care of castles: the French kings weren't really able to finally put paid to Burgundies and such until after the 15th century expulsion of the English (A hundred-odd years of war with the English probably helped create a French proto-nationalism, come to think of it).

Not sure why Imperial structures are inherently more troublesome for creating a territorial basis for the monarchy than French-type feudalism http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/france-growth.jpg :the Ottonians were able to draw on broad resources and create powerful armies in spite of them, the HRE didn't really become an ineffectual thing until later on.

Bruce

No. For the french kings, the key moment was not the 15th century and gunpowder but the early 13th century under Philip II Augustus. The moment he took control of Normandy, Maine and Anjou at the expense of the Plantagenets who were his most powerful vassal, the centralization process was unstopable since nobody had enough power to confront the king.
 
In order to create an evolving German state like the French state that evolved between Hugh Capet and the Bourbons who need to do away with the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. An Ottonian state which grew organically from its Saxon base acquiring other German terrirories as dynastic or military conditions allowed should have been able to develop as modern France did. The pursuit of the trans-alpine Imperial dream, although it made sense for the rulers at the time, short-circuited the organic develoment of a German state. However, had the 30 Years war unfloded differently, especially if GA had survuved longer and established Swedish hegemony (not rule) in the North there might have been an opportunity for the development of a more unified North German state, perhaps counter-balanced by the replacement of the HRE with a Habsburg ruled German greater-Austria (Alpine duchies, Bohemia, Bavaria if you send the Wittlesbachs somewhere else).
 
Maybe if Francis II. is elected HRE instead of Karl V., Karl could become the center of a national german reaction.
 

Faeelin

Banned
This thread is weirdly nationalist.

the HRE was capable of funding defense forces for the empire in teh 16th and 17th century, with an imperial system of justice that wasn't perfect, but did work. Arguably the real problem was the reformation, which helped abolish the empire's *govenment and dispute resolution mechanisms...
 
Based on the liner notes of Sabaton's "Carolus Rex" album, what about a German/Swedish empire?

According to those notes, Gustav Adolf had the ultimate goal of becoming Holy Roman Emperor (of a mostly Protestant Germany plus of course Sweden). Let's say he doesn't bite the bullet at Lützen and continues to give the Imperials one measured shoeing after the other until they have to sue for peace on Sweden's terms and all of Protestant Germany (plus some Catholic territories) is united under his leadership?
 
Based on the liner notes of Sabaton's "Carolus Rex" album, what about a German/Swedish empire?

According to those notes, Gustav Adolf had the ultimate goal of becoming Holy Roman Emperor (of a mostly Protestant Germany plus of course Sweden). Let's say he doesn't bite the bullet at Lützen and continues to give the Imperials one measured shoeing after the other until they have to sue for peace on Sweden's terms and all of Protestant Germany (plus some Catholic territories) is united under his leadership?

IMHO in such a scenario there will probably be two Holy Roman Empires, a Catholic one and a Protestant one, and both will not recognize each other. Furthermore one could wonder whether the great Protestant princes in the Empire wouldn't prefer one of their own as Emperor. Regardless of the religious differences the Habsburgs were a native dynasty.
 
Are you one of those guys who thinks Bismarck had a Masterplan? :D

Yes and no. Bismarck didn't act completely without a plan, but it was not a rigid construction leading to the "Kleindeutsche" unification.

His priorities, though, were to secure his power and the monarchy, once that is done, elevate Prussia's position in Europe; especially in comparison to Austria and France. Once that is done, make both durable.

I just tried to argue against the idea that German unification just happened during 1870/71. There were a lot of tendencies leading to it (plans concerning currencies, the customs union, customs parliament, agreements on measurements etc.). Once the obstalces were removed, things started to roll.
 
It doesn't sound too plausible. Besides another option could be that Ferdinand ends up with Austria & Burgundy/Burgundian Netherlands and that he would focus on the Empire instead. In fact Ferdinand was briefly considered as the candidate for the position of HRE instead of IOTL Charles V. Though later IOTL Ferdinand was elected as his successor and even governed the Empire in his brother's absence with great autonomy (however in certain matters Charles did want to keep a say.
Charles had inherited the Crown of Castille and the Crown of Aragon, which both were more valuable than the ancestral collection of lands of Austria-Burgundy. If you want to switch Charles and Ferdinand, then you probably need their grandfather Ferdinand of Aragon succeeding at making his grandson Ferdinand (who grew up in 'Spain') the heir to the Spanish kingdoms.
In which case Charles will keep the rest of the inheritance and he probably ends up marrying Anna of Bohemia-Hungary instead, which makes more sense if the dynastic policy is more focused on the HRE.

Agreed; but I took the easiest POD-approach: different personality on a royal leader. Switching Charles and Ferdinand wouldn't matter under these circumstances.

For a 16th century scenario, I think two things are pivotal: prevent the terrible division of the Habsburg-realm into Spain/Low Countries vs German Lands/Italian lands. I have no idea why it seemed like a good idea.
Pivotal for a German National State is, even at this state, to separate it from Italy, as hard as it sounds. I agree totally with all the posts which stress that. And it would be very helpful if the (Austrian) Habsburgs come out as Protestant. That would completely crsuh the balance in 16th century Germany and prevent the drain the religious conflict was.

A different division of the Carolingian Empire and/or the Lotharingian partition could work. Perhaps something along the lines of Italy, Provence and the Imperial title going to West Francia and the rest going to East Francia, which would then probably develop into a Kingdom of Germany further down the line.

On a map, that looks good, yes. But actually, prior to the wave of urbanisation in the 13th century, that would be severely imbalanced. Only a comparatively weak realm would be there for such a ruler.

The best option would be that Otto I does not conquer Italy and doesn't form the HRE in the first place.
[...]which could well lead to an unification in the early middle ages. Whether this unification would lead to a more absolute state like France or a more limited monarchy like in England is up for debate.

IMHO, such an early unification is dubious to last. Why? Because it would rather coincidentially be national. Germany would still be feudal, like the rest of the medieval world, and the last word here is about dynasties.

Thus, a united Germany would still be prone to divisions, regional upstarts etc.
 
IMHO, such an early unification is dubious to last. Why? Because it would rather coincidentially be national. Germany would still be feudal, like the rest of the medieval world, and the last word here is about dynasties.

Thus, a united Germany would still be prone to divisions, regional upstarts etc.

Certainly such an early unification would not be guaranteed to last, but it would in my opinion have better chances than the HRE. Lets take Otto III (the grandson of Otto I) as an example. Although he was an able ruler, turmoil in Italy forced him to spend most of its time there. As a result the German nobility was free to strengthen its position against further rulers.

Of course being able to focus on Germany alone does not automatically mean that the kings will be able to establish dominance over the nobles, but it will make it easier, as the king won't have to spend half of its time south of the Alps.
 
Agreed; but I took the easiest POD-approach: different personality on a royal leader. Switching Charles and Ferdinand wouldn't matter under these circumstances.

For a 16th century scenario, I think two things are pivotal: prevent the terrible division of the Habsburg-realm into Spain/Low Countries vs German Lands/Italian lands. I have no idea why it seemed like a good idea.
Pivotal for a German National State is, even at this state, to separate it from Italy, as hard as it sounds. I agree totally with all the posts which stress that. And it would be very helpful if the (Austrian) Habsburgs come out as Protestant. That would completely crsuh the balance in 16th century Germany and prevent the drain the religious conflict was.

(...)

The dividing the Habsburg Lands by itself wasn't a bad idea, since as the reign of Charles V had shown it wasn't really governable. However the OTL with the Spanish branch getting Spain, the Italian Possessions and Burgundy & the Netherlands; and the Austrian branch getting the Austrian Lands and later Bohemia & Hungary (with Croatia) wasn't ideal. IMHO a better division would have been to give the Austrian Branch everything North of the Alps and the Spanish branch keeps the rest (including Milan), so basically have the Austrian branch end up with Burgundian Lands (Burgundy & the Netherlands) too.
The Austrian Habsburgs don't need to become Protestant, certainly not in the Long Run, but in the shorter run it would mean having a 'Reformed' (as in Contra Reformation) Catholic Church prevail against the Reformation in the Empire. One way to do so would be a Conclave to address various issues earlier (even IOTL Charles V unsuccessfully tried to get a Conclave on this matter), especially before both sides started to radicalise, many agreed upon that the Church needed to be reformed and not necessarily split from it.
 
The dividing the Habsburg Lands by itself wasn't a bad idea, since as the reign of Charles V had shown it wasn't really governable. However the OTL with the Spanish branch getting Spain, the Italian Possessions and Burgundy & the Netherlands; and the Austrian branch getting the Austrian Lands and later Bohemia & Hungary (with Croatia) wasn't ideal. IMHO a better division would have been to give the Austrian Branch everything North of the Alps and the Spanish branch keeps the rest (including Milan), so basically have the Austrian branch end up with Burgundian Lands (Burgundy & the Netherlands) too.

That's actually what I meant. I am not against the division itself, but the contraproductive way the lands were handed to the two lines. I completely agree with your proposal.

The Austrian Habsburgs don't need to become Protestant, certainly not in the Long Run, but in the shorter run it would mean having a 'Reformed' (as in Contra Reformation) Catholic Church prevail against the Reformation in the Empire. One way to do so would be a Conclave to address various issues earlier (even IOTL Charles V unsuccessfully tried to get a Conclave on this matter), especially before both sides started to radicalise, many agreed upon that the Church needed to be reformed and not necessarily split from it.

That's a good alternative. But: an emperor who wishes to reform the church might have to go to Italy often, I presume. ;-)
 
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