Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Only adds to the appeal...:)
No worse than Cressy, Aboukir or Ramilles, and not forgetting HMS Lord Nelson, Collingwood, St Vincent ... and the Fleet flagship Iron Duke.

To be fair, there was some evidence of tact. The next ship of the very best name wasn't completed until 1945.
Cruisers Blenheim & Black Prince (victor at Poitiers) , battleships Marlborough & Barham.

Temeraire
& Bellerophon names in RN came from original French prizes.

Edited so we didn't name a super-dreadnought after a railway junction in Sussex!
 

Deleted member 94680

And yet Jellicoe was worried with an OTL greater margin in capital ships in late 14/ early 15.

It was Jellicoe’s job to worry, still doesn’t mean the change in balance you propose will actually have a material affect. The Germans were outnumbered in capital ships throughout the entire war, one more Battlecruiser is unlikely (outrageous fortune worthy of its own TL aside) to tip the balance in their favour.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
It was Jellicoe’s job to worry, still doesn’t mean the change in balance you propose will actually have a material affect. The Germans were outnumbered in capital ships throughout the entire war, one more Battlecruiser is unlikely (outrageous fortune worthy of its own TL aside) to tip the balance in their favour.

True - but the odds will only get worse OTL (& In assume ITTL). Ingehol & Pohl never grasped that; by the time Scheer determined a policy of isolating part of the Grand Fleet, most likely Beatty's battlecruiser force, the margins had grown too far in Jellicoe's favour. With hindsight this would be their best chance to try for Der Tag.

The real difference would be in BCs - the British are down 3 - or 4 if Indefatigable is still in the Med - while the Germans add one. That makes it 5 vs 5. Dogger Bank may well be a different result with Goeben replacing Blucher although Von der Tann is still missing assuming same issues as OTL.
 
It was Jellicoe’s job to worry, still doesn’t mean the change in balance you propose will actually have a material affect. The Germans were outnumbered in capital ships throughout the entire war, one more Battlecruiser is unlikely (outrageous fortune worthy of its own TL aside) to tip the balance in their favour.
The Germans were outnumbered but they had an advantage that they could pick the day and so if they decided to and had a bit of luck 100% of the the German Navy could sail out at 100% condition and face 85% of the British fleet at 90% condition. Historically the British at Jutland left behind 4 battleships. 2 in refit 1 undergoing maintenance and 1 that was too new.

At least in theory. In reality the Royal Navy had for example 72 hours notice of the Germans setting sail at Jutland and this was more than sufficient to wrap up maintenance on most ships. If you reduce the notice to live. That is that the Royal Navy finds out that the Germans are at sea when they put to sea the Royal Navy are likely to have to leave behind twice as many ships.

So if the Admirals don't know that they will get notice then it's a matter of a needing a big margin.
 
The Germans were outnumbered but they had an advantage that they could pick the day and so if they decided to and had a bit of luck 100% of the the German Navy could sail out at 100% condition and face 85% of the British fleet at 90% condition. Historically the British at Jutland left behind 4 battleships. 2 in refit 1 undergoing maintenance and 1 that was too new.

At least in theory. In reality the Royal Navy had for example 72 hours notice of the Germans setting sail at Jutland and this was more than sufficient to wrap up maintenance on most ships. If you reduce the notice to live. That is that the Royal Navy finds out that the Germans are at sea when they put to sea the Royal Navy are likely to have to leave behind twice as many ships.

So if the Admirals don't know that they will get notice then it's a matter of a needing a big margin.
Hence why the UK wanted at least 60% greater capital ship numbers than Germany
 

Deleted member 94680

All I’m saying is the loss of Agincourt and Erin compared to the gain of Goeben is not enough to make any world-shattering impact on the balance of power. True, it means the numbers of BCs would be equal if this TL had a Jutland, but BCs are not going to win the naval war on their own. They will still get chewed up if they meet a modern battleship or get caught by superior numbers.

The British may not be as big winners as you think. The balance of power in the North Sea has changed. The British are now down two dreadnoughts, while if Goeben gets home the High Seas Fleet is up one battlecruiser. ...the margin of available capital ships over the High Seas Fleet came pretty near parity in OTL and caused Jellicoe some days of worry.

The original post about the loss of Agincourt and Erin and gain of Goeben implied it was an almost decisive blow at Britain’s chances of winning the naval war. I was refuting that suggestion.
 
Also the newest British ships had various problems that meant at one point Jellicoe had only a single ship advantage.
 
Dreadnought was one of the 4 I mentioned. She was one of the ships I mention as being under refit.
In that case you've missed one - Dreadnought (assigned to 3BS on the Humber after her refit), Emperor of India & Queen Elizabeth were refitting at the time of Jutland. Australia was undergoing repairs and Royal Sovereign was still working up.

Of course, availability is never 100% - The Germans were missing Konig Albert
 
In that case you've missed one - Dreadnought (assigned to 3BS on the Humber after her refit), Emperor of India & Queen Elizabeth were refitting at the time of Jutland. Australia was undergoing repairs and Royal Sovereign was still working up.

Of course, availability is never 100% - The Germans were missing Konig Albert
Missed Australia then. The source I checked was talking about grand fleet and I didn't go separately to check bcf. I assumed it would include it.
 
Of course with the Lord Nelsons not being tied down near the Dardenelles to in order to help keep the Goeben in the Black Sea(of course the one time she came out they were coaling and thus not in position to stop her) will probably take the place of Dreadnought in the 3rd Battle Squadron.
 
Missed Australia then. The source I checked was talking about grand fleet and I didn't go separately to check bcf. I assumed it would include it.
Ahh, I wondered, which means we're both right :) (in your OP, you did say battleships, not battlecruisers)

Speaking of which, the RN is about to find its BCs increasingly handy...
 
Von Spee's Odyssey
Von Spee’s Odyssey

Before the outbreak of war, other German forces were on the move. Admiral von Spee's East Asiatic Squadron sailed from Tsingtau, bound for the German colonies in the Mariana Islands. Flying his flag in the armoured cruiser SMS Blucher, von Spee had with him two smaller armoured cruisers, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and four supply ships. The two sister-ships were to have sailed for Germany in September at the end of a two-year deployment to the Pacific, but following the assassination of the Austrian Archduke, von Spee's orders were to keep them with him in case of war. As he reached the Marianas he was joined by the light cruisers Emden and Nurnburg, which had been showing the flag around the German, British and French colonies that were dotted across the Pacific.

In the early days of the war, the British cut the undersea cables that linked Germany with the rest of the world. As a consequence, von Spee could no longer receive orders from Berlin. In anticipation of these events, he had received general orders to conduct cruiser warfare as he saw fit, and to either attempt to return to Germany, or to assist in the defence of German territories. The most recent intelligence he had was that Japan remained neutral, although she might declare war at any time in support of her British ally, while parts of the Dutch East Indies or Chile might provide him with ‘friendly neutral’ ports.
The Admiral had an unenviable choice; with Tsingtau easily blockaded by the British, he had lost his only base of operations. Returning home meant crossing 20,000 miles of largely British-controlled ocean without access to a network of coaling stations, and he had no illusions about his chances of forcing his way past the British fleet in the North Sea.
He decided it was his duty to defend German territory, while causing the enemy trouble for as long as possible. He reasoned that together, his three armoured cruisers might just be a match for a lone British battlecruiser, and if he could make them concentrate their forces, they wouldn’t be able to patrol the oceans effectively. With luck, that would give his ships far greater freedom.

While coaling in Truk Lagoon a few days later, he detached SMS Emden to raid in the Indian Ocean, before taking the rest of his force towards German New Guinea. The light cruiser Nurnburg was sent ahead on the 19th August to scout the harbour at Rabaul, and on confirming that it was clear of Allied ships, the rest of the fleet was able to approach and anchor. Coaling and general maintenance took until the 23rd, and the Admiral made arrangements with the wireless station to broadcast coded signals once Allied ships were sighted. Even if his ships were out of range when that happened, it might confuse the enemy into thinking that he knew exactly where they were.
The fleet moved out to provide cover as the Scharnhorst and Nurnburg conducted a bombardment of Port Moresby on the 25th, before returning to Rabaul.

News of the bombardment drew British forces, just as von Spee had planned. Far to the East, rather than spending her time searching for von Spee, HMAS Australia had been covering the occupation of Samoa, following the insistence of the Australian and New Zealand governments that the ships be used to guard the troop convoys. To the north, the battlecruiser HMS New Zealand and the armoured cruiser Minotaur had scouted the Marshalls and were heading towards the Caroline Islands. Once they received news of the bombardment and headed south at best practical speed.
Von Spee knew he would have no more than a few days between the bombardment and the arrival of Royal Navy forces and hastened to re-coal all his ships, before sailing from Rabaul again on the morning of the 28th. The following day, he received news via wireless that the German radio station at Samoa had suddenly gone quiet. Obviously, Samoa had been captured, and in all probability, any covering force was now on its way to the Bismarck Archipelago.
Provided with this valuable intelligence, he decided there was a new opportunity for his squadron to act together, instead of splitting up to raid shipping independently. Blucher, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Nurnburg were heading Northeast, to avoid any Allied forces heading west from Samoa, and to minimise the risk of encountering anything coming from the north. Nevertheless, he missed HMS New Zealand by less than 150 miles, and he heard feint signals from the wireless station at Rabaul reporting her arrival offshore on the 3rd September. That piece of news confirmed his plans; he knew, or at least suspected, where both British battlecruisers were.

He stopped to coal at Ellis Island, before heading towards his new target: Samoa

On the morning of 16th September, the Nurnburg once again scouted ahead of the fleet and confirmed that there were no Allied warships in the harbour off Apia. Admiral von Spee’s squadron steamed in with guns manned and pointed at the town. Shells were fired at the wireless station in a successful attempt to disable it and a small steamer was sunk in the harbour, distracting attention while Marines from all four ships landed to outflank the town and secure the docks and coal stocks. Once this was done, a picket boat was sent in under a flag of truce.
Faced with such overwhelming firepower, and having his force so quickly cut off from the docks and most of the supplies still sitting on the quayside, the commander of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force surrendered the island, although several hundred men escaped inland, with many later reaching the neighbouring island of Savaii.

The re-capture of Samoa gave von Spee fresh news of the rest of the world. From prisoners and locals, his crews learned of the ongoing progress of the German armies in Europe. It took several days for outbound wireless messages to reach the rest of the world, but the announcement that his squadron had successfully liberated Samoa and taken several hundred prisoners was trumpeted around the world as further evidence that Germany was winning.
 

Deleted member 94680

What makes von Spee attack Samoa ITTL where OTL he deliberately decide against such a course of action to avoid damaging German property or killing Samoan citizens?

Is this TL going to be a Germanwank?
 
So, for a summary of what everyone was talking about with the HSF nearly reaching parity with the Grand Fleet in 1914:

Royal Navy October 1914:
Dreadnought
Bellerophon
Superb
Temeraire
St. Vincent
Collingwood
Vanguard
Colossus
Hercules
Neptune
Orion <- Suspect turbine supports
Monarch
Conqueror <- Refit, October
Thunderer
King George V
Audacious <- Mined and sunk
Ajax <- Condenser trouble October
Centurion
Iron Duke <- Condenser trouble October
Marlborough
Erin <- Working up
Agincourt <- Working up

Invincible
Inflexible
New Zealand <- In dock October
Lion
Princess Royal
Queen Mary

High Seas Fleet October 1914:
Nassau
Westfalen
Rheinland
Posen
Helgoland
Ostfriesland
Thuringen
Oldenburg
Kaiser
Friedrich Der Grosse
Kaiserin
Prinzregent Luitpold
Konig Albert
Grosser Kurfurst
Konig <- Working up

Von Der Tann
Moltke
Seydlitz
Derfflinger <- Working up

So as of October, and discounting ships still working up, the Royal Navy's lead over the High Sea Fleet was all but nonexistent. 15 dreadnoughts to 14, and 5 battlecruisers to 3. And here, the Brits don't even theoretically have Erin and Agincourt, New Zealand is gallivanting about the Far East, and Goeben is now in the North Sea.

This is all before Von Spee's squadron demands a response, which OTL sent three battlecruisers haring off to parts unknown, and further bad luck with the dreadnoughts, namely King George V developing condenser trouble and Conqueror and Monarch colliding. With Benbow, Emperor of India, and Tiger still working up, and Konig combat-ready, that leaves the Royal Navy up 16:15 in dreadnoughts and 3:4 in battlecruisers. Unless the Royal Navy can pull back Indefatigable and Indomitable, which would restore some edge in battlecruisers.

Though who knows what sort of butterflies this timeline will induce. We've already got some wild changes here. The point being, the Grand Fleet losing Erin and Agincourt and the HSF gaining Goeben are much bigger deals than the small numbers of ships would normally indicate.
 
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