Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[Glen]

ill look at a topographic map of austrailia and attempt to improve the map a little,

Good for you!

also does South Austrailia's population at the time amount to anything high?

No, not really - it's significantly lower than OTL - also, there are more Indians being brought in as labor than OTL.

 

[Glen]

Touche, a good point.

Kind of you, sir.

The population of the whole of Australia (or, the countable ones, so the colonists) in 1850 was about 400,000. South Australia has a decent enough population,

It's a bit less than that ITTL.

the real problem is that north Australia has virtually nothing, and therefore doesn't really deserve its own subdivisions yet, or if it does it only deserves one big subdivision based in Darwin, which is actually located in the area where your territories get a coastline in the north.

Yes - except that a Darwin analogue hasn't been founded yet ITTL.

The three northernmost of those subdivision marked on the map (I'm not counting the deep-red territories because there was no-one there, exception of Darwin, as mentioned...Australia has never had an inland subdivision because of the complete lack of population, for the record) would probably have had a settler population of under 1,000, and of the remaining southern two the southernmost one of them would probably have about 3/4 of the population of Australia to itself. Overall, I'm just not convinced Australia has a big enough population to start being divided up yet.

More or less agree.

Also, of course, it should be remembered that that 400,000 does include some settlers in what is now French Australia, and also with the continued presence of a humid British colony in southern North America, Australia's immigration is probably just a little bit down on OTL numbers anyway (I can't remember what Glen has said on Australian immigration).

Yes, immigration to British Australia is down compared to OTL - of course, immigration to French Australia is actually up (I previously only referred to British numbers). Overall, the total population of the continent of Australia is probably greater than this time OTL, but less for the British regions compared to their OTL equivalents.

 

[Glen]

@Earl of Somerset: those australian borders are the worst

Be nice, he's trying - give him some constructive feedback as to why they are a problem, so he can do better!

 

[Glen]

If there is a potato famine.

There have been a number of famines in Ireland due to mismanagement and malice and weather and disease, but not the actual Potato Blight - at least not yet.

Plus the British government of TTL is slightly different from OT because of the length of time from the POD. While I'm sure many of the laws restricting Irish rights may still be in place, the government may actually heed the call for helping out the Irish people.

I do need to address the Irish in more detail...

Besides, if there is a famine, more Irish may move to the CSA than Oceania in TTL. It is a shorter trip, meaning cheaper to pay transport. The same could be said for the trip to British Patagonia. The USA is also larger and many would go there still.

Biggest destination for those able to choose is USA.

I see Oceania as having the lowest amount of emigration to its shores. It will be more of a penal colony than OT. Yet, I don't think it will just be the Irish being shipped to Oceania. I could see all the British controlled territories using it to ship off their criminally undesirable. Whether of European decent, African, Indian or the Americas it just might be easier to ship the so called disruptive elements to the most isolated place on Earth at the time. This would make the future culture of Oceania quite interesting and if you add in the possibility that there would be a higher presence of British troops in Greater Australia, due to the French controlling a portion it, may make this place a powder keg more so than OTL.

This all is very interesting - but don't forget the potential of Patagonia as a place to put penal colonies!

 

[Glen]

I think some sort of crisis is virtually inevitable because of the system with so much dependent on a single crop with a pretty low level of genetic diversity.

A fair point - and of course, the longer it is forestalled, the bigger the crash to come...

The key thing will the British reaction would be the nature of the government in London. Would they largely be working on laisse-faire as OTL Liberals or more interventionist as the Tories were at the start of the crisis. In the latter things might be resolved with far less deaths and suffering, at least in the short term as it would stop some of the market fluctuation that caused a lot of the problem. It would also make more government intervention likely rather than the reliance on public charity and on local landowners in Ireland, which deepened the rift between them and the ordinary people.

The other factor would be how completely and quickly London realised the size and nature of the problem. I did read in one source that when the 1st reports came out an agricultural organisation in Dublin was approached and reported there was no problem. This was because the type of potato they were growing, in the dryer eastern provinces was fine but the type grown by the ordinary peasant in the western western and southern provinces was rotting in the field. This sort of mistake meant time was lost as the magnitude of the problem was mis-read.

All very good points - more lives have been lost to mistakes and incompetence than outright malice - and of course the combination might be even more problematic.

Very true on all accounts. I think there would still be a move to Australia as OTL but other locations are likely to get more people [Britain, N America and possibly Patagonia]. Not sure if any numbers went to S Africa as that would appear to be another option but can't remember reading about any/many going there.

Need more colonists!

Probably largely true but there will be growing settlement as farms take off and also when gold is discovered that will be a big boost. Also with the French in Australia and N Zealand you can expect a greater military presence, which will attract some traders and possibly also more efforts to encourage more settlers to secure the regions Britain controls.

Steve

These are good points as well!

 

[Glen]

That would be interesting to see; greater Irish influence on Afrikaners. May end up having an even greater hatred for the British than the Afrikaners of OTL.

There's a cheery thought....

 

[Glen]

YOU, make a proposal then

Don't be discouraged, but also consider researching further before your rewrite.

 

[Glen]

Here's my own attempt for Australian provinces. I decided to go with primarily river basins rather than straight lines. I assume the northern territories of both the British and the French will remain territories for a long time yet.

A fairly reasonable approach! However, I also imagine that some of the borders will diverge from watersheds.

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

I've just thought of an Interesting idea. The British Government grants Colonial Charter! (This will be used for Desert or semi arid areas and to a lesser extent habitable areas). The Charter can include 50-200 sq. KM. For any wealthy individual who can A: Settle the land with 100 or more people B:make sure there is no threat from the natives. and C: Introudce agriculture to the Region gets the following advantages. They and thier Family are tax free forever. The are given the title Lord. The district they buy is named after them, and they are given a spot in the colonial legislature, (that is when one is made ).

Eventually with increased populaiton the First Subdivisions can be made and then colonies form.

Just an idea

 

[Glen]

Here's my own attempt for Australian provinces. I decided to go with primarily river basins rather than straight lines. I assume the northern territories of both the British and the French will remain territories for a long time yet.

In addition to this, I should mention that the line showing the 132nd Meridian East is a little off, and should just be below the peninsula, not the island.

 

[Glen]

Here is my attempt to put that map on the world scale.

Interesting - certainly getting more plausible!

 

[Glen]

That's probably my favourite map so far, but I'm still not convinced by ideas that TTL Australia, with arguably fewer colonists and less attention from London, would in fact end up with more subdivisions. I would argue that less provinces is the far more likely result. I would speculate that something like this is more likely:

Your border on French Greater Australia was slightly off.

 

[Glen]

I've just thought of an Interesting idea. The British Government grants Colonial Charter! (This will be used for Desert or semi arid areas and to a lesser extent habitable areas). The Charter can include 50-200 sq. KM. For any wealthy individual who can A: Settle the land with 100 or more people B:make sure there is no threat from the natives. and C: Introudce agriculture to the Region gets the following advantages. They and thier Family are tax free forever. The are given the title Lord. The district they buy is named after them, and they are given a spot in the colonial legislature, (that is when one is made ).

Eventually with increased populaiton the First Subdivisions can be made and then colonies form.

Just an idea

And it's a cool one. Don't know if we will see it ITTL, but definitely a cool idea!

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

I got insiparation from the Homstead act, only this time its encouraging resourceful ways of settling the land with 100 individuals, land distriubtion will vary from district to district, if some guy offers more land, people might want to settle there. We could see a very strong competition by the "Lords" to get thier number of people and very creative ideas to attract immigration.

Also, has the Suez Canal been built yet?

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

My chance for Redemption

I have again attempted to make a map of Australia with a new basemap

I have taken Elements from Previous maps.

There will be only 5 States to start with. Kingsland, Tasmania, Lesser Austrailia ( I think East Austrailia would sound alright and this is not pictured), Southern Austrailia, and New South Whales. Those compromise the southern portion of British Austrailia. I made 3 Territories in the North. Dariwn and Northeast Territory, which have few people living thier. And Brisbane Territory which has a chance of becoming a state in a few decades or so.

I also added a Capital District

Tell me your opinions!

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

Everyone Give a round of applause for Glen!

The Dominion of Southern America has 100,000 Views!

 

[thekingsguard]

100,000 views! <claps repeatedly>

 

[stevep]

Earl_of_Somerset

Interesting idea and I could see something like that being useful. However I doubt that the government would offer perpetual freedom from all taxes for the entire family. That could well fairly quickly degenerate into a situation where a sizeable faction of the colony are not only very wealthy but escaping tax altogether. Which would both cripple the fiscal position of the colony and cause intense social division.

I could see a basis for some tax exemption, say for the life of the original lord or for him and his descendants for x years but not perpetually.

If a Irish potato blight occurs then this could be a popular response to get some of the surplus population moved and at the same time establish younger sons of the aristocracy with estates in the colonies and the sort of social establishment they were used to. Also possibly with some of the businessmen and industries who OTL often married into the nobility for status would be attracted to the idea. Probably more for their descendants than themselves as in the colonies they would be a long way from their businesses and also the real centre of power.

Steve

I've just thought of an Interesting idea. The British Government grants Colonial Charter! (This will be used for Desert or semi arid areas and to a lesser extent habitable areas). The Charter can include 50-200 sq. KM. For any wealthy individual who can A: Settle the land with 100 or more people B:make sure there is no threat from the natives. and C: Introudce agriculture to the Region gets the following advantages. They and thier Family are tax free forever. The are given the title Lord. The district they buy is named after them, and they are given a spot in the colonial legislature, (that is when one is made ).

Eventually with increased populaiton the First Subdivisions can be made and then colonies form.

Just an idea

 

[Falastur]

Your border on French Greater Australia was slightly off.

Yeah sorry, I just nicked it off Wikipedia - I was more interested in portraying the British borders than getting the French bit right

I've just thought of an Interesting idea. The British Government grants Colonial Charter! (This will be used for Desert or semi arid areas and to a lesser extent habitable areas). The Charter can include 50-200 sq. KM. For any wealthy individual who can A: Settle the land with 100 or more people B:make sure there is no threat from the natives. and C: Introudce agriculture to the Region gets the following advantages. They and thier Family are tax free forever. The are given the title Lord. The district they buy is named after them, and they are given a spot in the colonial legislature, (that is when one is made ).

Possibly, though I think the idea of creating Australian Lords was a bit anachronistic - it was the era of the middle classes become the new elite and the wealthy Lords were powerful but dying out and losing their status - increasingly the Lords of British society were becoming a social elite which the rest of the populace no longer aspired to be part of. The poor increasingly resented them and the wealthy wanted to flash their cash to show their superiority to the landed elite (while imitating their customs, admittedly). I think the idea of creating Australian Lords would probably cause trouble in Parliament with many MPs not wanting to create more Lords, and with the working-class-orientated Australian population not wanting to have Lordlings thrust upon them. Tax exemption status would also be dangerous since it would essentially give all the profits from the colony grant to the Lordling and deny it to London, and the whole point of these colonies existing was to derive profit from them.

Still, private colonies in the 1850s certainly would be interesting as an experiment. You could even end up with a kind of faux feudalism, I guess, with the colonies being forced to submit to the Australian Parliament (when Australia gets given Dominion/Federation status) but paying only lip service to it and insisting on having their own private Parliament making most of the rules. Knowing land speculation in this era, a colonial charter would probably result in the Lordling subletting parts of his land grand to other, less-wealthy speculators, possibly under the fake claims of the land containing gold - which would further the fake feudalism analogy as those sub-colonies would then administer themselves, etc. It could all turn into a very interesting total political mess, which London would be forced to sort out about 50-100 years later

 

[Falkenburg]

Chartist Agitation!

Australian Colonial Charter, please!
An intriguing idea that could well loose a veritable horde of Butterflies.

Even were to be a Great Hunger in Ireland, such a Charter would provide an attractive outlet for refugees, both for Landlords seeking to clear their land/help the destitute) and those fleeing starvation themselves.

Also much interest in possible future Chartist Uprising as such Colonists seek to exert more control over their political and economic destinies.

By the by,
On Ireland itself, this is developing into a distinctly different world than OTL. Absent the bizarre concatenation of events and offences of the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries, I believe it highly probable that Ireland would remain a (relatively) happy part of the United Kingdom.

Falkenburg