Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[Earl_of_Somerset]

Earl_of_Somerset

Interesting idea and I could see something like that being useful. However I doubt that the government would offer perpetual freedom from all taxes for the entire family. That could well fairly quickly degenerate into a situation where a sizeable faction of the colony are not only very wealthy but escaping tax altogether. Which would both cripple the fiscal position of the colony and cause intense social division.

I could see a basis for some tax exemption, say for the life of the original lord or for him and his descendants for x years but not perpetually.

What about the family is exempt from taxes as long as the succesful "Colonizer" is alive

 

[Falastur]

What about the family is exempt from taxes as long as the succesful "Colonizer" is alive

An exemption for one generation I guess is feasible, but it still results in the colonial Lordling sucking in money that could be going into London's pockets. More likely they just get a cut of the profits in exchange for funding colonising and setting up stuff like gold mines etc.

 

[stevep]

An exemption for one generation I guess is feasible, but it still results in the colonial Lordling sucking in money that could be going into London's pockets. More likely they just get a cut of the profits in exchange for funding colonising and setting up stuff like gold mines etc.

Falastur

True but then the British colonies generally paid little or nothing in taxes to the central government anyway. They mainly made money for Britain [where they did at all] in terms of investments and the trade goods generated.

One of, possibly the largest barrier to imperial federation was that the colonies, even when formally independent dominions, paid very little on defence compared to the metropolitan area.

Steve

 

[Sovereign12]

What I think would actually be the case is something similar to the USA Land Rushes of OTL. Basically the UK sets up a Commission to charge a certain amount for the right to partake in the Land Rush. At a designated spot those who have paid have the right to run to the designated lots to claim one. The interesting thing about doing this in Greater and Lesser Australia is that the UK and the Rail companies would be working together. I see it something like this.

The UK government needs rail lines built to supply their forts along the UK/French border in G. Australia. Cheap labor can be found in using the prisoners of the penal colonies as chain gangs. As many of the chain gangs work as little as possible, and violence only gets them to work so far, it is announced that those who work to completing the lines will accrue an amount of money they can use to purchase their own land upon their release.

This works so well that the British government and the rail companies decide to do something similar with anyone who wants to buy their own land. The Rail companies setup outpost/towns, in which they own all the buildings and goods. Those that have purchased the rights to a land grab obviously need to buy their temporary room and board, supplies, and livestock from the Rail Road. The UK government gets their cut also.

Thinking about it more the mining companies started in Australia earlier than the Rail companies, so I could see them getting in on this also.

 

[Glen]

I got insiparation from the Homstead act, only this time its encouraging resourceful ways of settling the land with 100 individuals, land distriubtion will vary from district to district, if some guy offers more land, people might want to settle there. We could see a very strong competition by the "Lords" to get thier number of people and very creative ideas to attract immigration.

It's a clever idea, no question. I shall consider it.

Also, has the Suez Canal been built yet?

Good question - you'll see....

 

[Glen]

I have again attempted to make a map of Australia with a new basemap

I have taken Elements from Previous maps.

There will be only 5 States to start with. Kingsland, Tasmania, Lesser Austrailia ( I think East Austrailia would sound alright and this is not pictured), Southern Austrailia, and New South Whales. Those compromise the southern portion of British Austrailia. I made 3 Territories in the North. Dariwn and Northeast Territory, which have few people living thier. And Brisbane Territory which has a chance of becoming a state in a few decades or so.

I also added a Capital District

Tell me your opinions!

Some of those names are likely too OTL. The borders look better - I would be curious to hear their origins. The border for French Australia is slightly off.

 

[Glen]

Everyone Give a round of applause for Glen!

The Dominion of Southern America has 100,000 Views!

Outstanding! Thank you EoS for announcing it! And thank you, dear viewers, for your patronage. It is only that that has made this thread the success it is!

 

[Glen]

100,000 views! <claps repeatedly>

and thanks to you, too, tkg!

 

[Glen]

Earl_of_Somerset

Interesting idea and I could see something like that being useful. However I doubt that the government would offer perpetual freedom from all taxes for the entire family. That could well fairly quickly degenerate into a situation where a sizeable faction of the colony are not only very wealthy but escaping tax altogether. Which would both cripple the fiscal position of the colony and cause intense social division.

Could go Ottoman and instead of being exempt from taxes, have them collect taxes in the King's name and keep a cut.

I could see a basis for some tax exemption, say for the life of the original lord or for him and his descendants for x years but not perpetually.

Another possibility.

If a Irish potato blight occurs then this could be a popular response to get some of the surplus population moved and at the same time establish younger sons of the aristocracy with estates in the colonies and the sort of social establishment they were used to. Also possibly with some of the businessmen and industries who OTL often married into the nobility for status would be attracted to the idea. Probably more for their descendants than themselves as in the colonies they would be a long way from their businesses and also the real centre of power.

Maybe, but I could see trouble with recruitment for the tenants since there are greener pastures without overlordship out there.

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

Could go Ottoman and instead of being exempt from taxes, have them collect taxes in the King's name and keep a cut.

That could discouarge immigration. Move here! We tax higher than everyone ! Well, the idea could work, but the methods of getting taxes would have to be clever.

Another possibility.

As Long as the "Lord" lives? as soon as he died his family starts paying Taxes again.

 

[Glen]

Yeah sorry, I just nicked it off Wikipedia - I was more interested in portraying the British borders than getting the French bit right

I understand, but it is important...

Possibly, though I think the idea of creating Australian Lords was a bit anachronistic - it was the era of the middle classes become the new elite and the wealthy Lords were powerful but dying out and losing their status - increasingly the Lords of British society were becoming a social elite which the rest of the populace no longer aspired to be part of. The poor increasingly resented them and the wealthy wanted to flash their cash to show their superiority to the landed elite (while imitating their customs, admittedly).

A fair point.

I think the idea of creating Australian Lords would probably cause trouble in Parliament with many MPs not wanting to create more Lords, and with the working-class-orientated Australian population not wanting to have Lordlings thrust upon them. Tax exemption status would also be dangerous since it would essentially give all the profits from the colony grant to the Lordling and deny it to London, and the whole point of these colonies existing was to derive profit from them.

And this too. It may be more of a problem than the top part.

Still, private colonies in the 1850s certainly would be interesting as an experiment. You could even end up with a kind of faux feudalism, I guess, with the colonies being forced to submit to the Australian Parliament (when Australia gets given Dominion/Federation status) but paying only lip service to it and insisting on having their own private Parliament making most of the rules. Knowing land speculation in this era, a colonial charter would probably result in the Lordling subletting parts of his land grand to other, less-wealthy speculators, possibly under the fake claims of the land containing gold - which would further the fake feudalism analogy as those sub-colonies would then administer themselves, etc. It could all turn into a very interesting total political mess, which London would be forced to sort out about 50-100 years later

Interesting yes, but is it plausible?

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

ome of those names are likely too OTL. The borders look better - I would be curious to hear their origins. The border for French Australia is slightly off.

I combined the lower two Watersheads to form Kingsland (instead of Queensland because we got a King in power )

I lowered the Northern Most border for Southern Austrailia.

New South Whales, does that name need to be changed?

As for Southern Austrailia, maybe change it to Central Austrailia? Fleurieu? (its a penninsula there)

Also as for Darwin, Its in french austrailia actually just by a few miles. Would it hurt anyone to edit 131 to 130'50? If not maybe name the territory Eyre Territory after Lake Eyre? Van Diemen Territory?

Brisane maybe named Russel (after a nearby Island named russel)

Brisbane territory consists of some of OTL's Queenslands subdivisions

 

[Glen]

Australian Colonial Charter, please!
An intriguing idea that could well loose a veritable horde of Butterflies.

Even were to be a Great Hunger in Ireland, such a Charter would provide an attractive outlet for refugees, both for Landlords seeking to clear their land/help the destitute) and those fleeing starvation themselves.

Also much interest in possible future Chartist Uprising as such Colonists seek to exert more control over their political and economic destinies.

An interesting idea, but some of the counter-arguments against it are compelling.

By the by,
On Ireland itself, this is developing into a distinctly different world than OTL. Absent the bizarre concatenation of events and offences of the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries, I believe it highly probable that Ireland would remain a (relatively) happy part of the United Kingdom.

Falkenburg

One might wish it were so....

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

And this too. It may be more of a problem than the top part.

Lord is more of a title than anything.

As for people resenting it, its thier choice to move to the districts.

The Profits from Taxes still go to London. The Lords get profits from selling thier District off to individuals and no having to pay Taxes.

As for the MP's these guys are never getting to Parliment of Austrailia (some might but this is not a guarinetee) Local colonial councils will have spots for these guys (and im sure some locals who are elected) Local like county, not state or country

 

[Glen]

What about the family is exempt from taxes as long as the succesful "Colonizer" is alive

An exemption for one generation I guess is feasible, but it still results in the colonial Lordling sucking in money that could be going into London's pockets. More likely they just get a cut of the profits in exchange for funding colonising and setting up stuff like gold mines etc.

One generation is possible - and it would only be seen as 'sucked out' if it was believed that the revenue would have been generated sans the exemption. If however this was seen as the only viable vehicle to gain revenue in future generations from the land, then it becomes more reasonable.

 

[Glen]

Falastur

True but then the British colonies generally paid little or nothing in taxes to the central government anyway. They mainly made money for Britain [where they did at all] in terms of investments and the trade goods generated.

good point.

One of, possibly the largest barrier to imperial federation was that the colonies, even when formally independent dominions, paid very little on defence compared to the metropolitan area.

Steve

And why was that, and why was it the largest barrier? (though I can perhaps guess)

 

[Glen]

What I think would actually be the case is something similar to the USA Land Rushes of OTL.

Interesting link, btw.

Basically the UK sets up a Commission to charge a certain amount for the right to partake in the Land Rush. At a designated spot those who have paid have the right to run to the designated lots to claim one.

This is certainly an idea that can be developed.

The interesting thing about doing this in Greater and Lesser Australia is that the UK and the Rail companies would be working together. I see it something like this.

The UK government needs rail lines built to supply their forts along the UK/French border in G. Australia. Cheap labor can be found in using the prisoners of the penal colonies as chain gangs. As many of the chain gangs work as little as possible, and violence only gets them to work so far, it is announced that those who work to completing the lines will accrue an amount of money they can use to purchase their own land upon their release.

Interesting thought - not sure that the government or the railway would be this generous to convicts - could be wrong...

This works so well that the British government and the rail companies decide to do something similar with anyone who wants to buy their own land. The Rail companies setup outpost/towns, in which they own all the buildings and goods. Those that have purchased the rights to a land grab obviously need to buy their temporary room and board, supplies, and livestock from the Rail Road. The UK government gets their cut also.

Hmmm, like company stores....

Thinking about it more the mining companies started in Australia earlier than the Rail companies, so I could see them getting in on this also.

In what sense?

 

[Glen]

That could discouarge immigration. Move here! We tax higher than everyone ! Well, the idea could work, but the methods of getting taxes would have to be clever.

As Long as the "Lord" lives? as soon as he died his family starts paying Taxes again.

True about being less obvious about taxing. You know, this would sort of be like a baronet...

 

[Glen]

I combined the lower two Watersheads to form Kingsland (instead of Queensland because we got a King in power )

Good idea, though the name might depend on the timing....

I lowered the Northern Most border for Southern Austrailia.

Lowered in what sense?

New South Whales, does that name need to be changed?

Oddly enough, that name is probably going to be the same in both timelines.

As for Southern Austrailia, maybe change it to Central Austrailia? Fleurieu? (its a penninsula there)

Fleurieu??

Also as for Darwin, Its in french austrailia actually just by a few miles. Would it hurt anyone to edit 131 to 130'50?

Actually it should be 132, but 'Darwin' stays French.

If not maybe name the territory Eyre Territory after Lake Eyre? Van Diemen Territory?

Eyre? Do you mean Eire? Van Dieman is a bit late for this site I think.

Brisane maybe named Russel (after a nearby Island named russel)

Brisbane territory consists of some of OTL's Queenslands subdivisions

Brisbane is possible - the man would have been born, and its even possible he could be appointed to New South Wales, but maybe not the city specifically....

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

Fleurieu??

Just throwing it out there.

Lowered in what sense?

The northern line of Latitude for the border is lower than IOTL

Eyre? Do you mean Eire? Van Dieman is a bit late for this site I think.

Eyre is lake in central austrailia which drains 1/6th of Austrailia