Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[FleetMac]

Thing is because they had Canada, and Washington - the capital - is located further north and very close to NYC more attention was placed to the Great Lakes area earlier. Baltimore probably also suffered as a consequence. And without D.C. being a link between Philly and Richmond, Richmond is likely much more an isolate of an urban area than in OTL. Rather than a BosWash corridor, I'd say its MontPhilly in TTL.

On the brighter note, without a Civil War, Richmond has likely retained quite a bit of its Southern character.

The important border towns, I'm guessing, are likely farther West, by the rivers where shipping would be more important. Whatever is in the Ohio/Mississippi confluence here is likely big and important. As is anything along Tennessee River, on both sides.

This probably wouldn't be so if so much of the South hadn't left the US (if the rest of the Upper South had stayed, Richmond and Baltimore probably would've fared better than ITTL, as at least there'd be something to counterbalance having the capital so far north).

And for what it's worth, I think of most of the Richmond area as STILL mostly Southern in nature in OTL especially when compared to NoVA or (arguably) the Norfolk/VA Beach area. I agree though that the "Little Egypt" area of the US would see greater importance in terms of trade; there, as well as Kentucky and Virginia, would probably be seen as "Southern-in-nature" the same way the Great Lakes states are IOTL when compared to Canada (it really is remarkable how much Great Lakes Americans and Canadians in general have in common, as they sound similar, enjoy similar sports, eat similar cuisine styles, etc. I imagine the border states of the US, especially the ones of the "Old South", would have a similar relationship with the DSA).

 

[The Uchronian]

A good way to tell is if your family was Catholic or Protestant; if the former, you'd probably have straight up Irish ancestry on that side of the family, if the latter then it's likely you'd have Ulster ancestry. Of course that's not a hard and fast rule (my dad grew up in a Catholic household, but his folks from what I remember converted to it from Presbyterian), but a general bellweather. The other way to tell is whether one's ancestor arrived before or after the POD, given what you've said you probably would've still been an American ITTL.

Well, okay. My first ancestor from that particular family who arrived in the Colonies did so sometime in the 1650s or 1660s I think, and settled in Delaware.

 

[FleetMac]

Well, okay. My first ancestor from that particular family who arrived in the Colonies did so sometime in the 1650s or 1660s I think, and settled in Delaware.

Ah, Delaware....such an interesting state (sadly, I've only ever been once, and that was passing thru).

Indeed, I'd say you'd be a lock for being a Yank ITTL with that early an arrival date. Bear in mind, arrival date would matter more than religion in terms of determining which side of the border you'd be on in the TL (after all, I'm sure there have been Catholic Ulster-Scots and Protestant Irishmen at some point, hence my point about religion being more of a clue than a smoking-gun determination).

While I'm thinking about it, what did you think about the OOB? It's the first one I've written before, am I missing anything?

 

[Glen]

Waht do you mean by the latter part of that?

Actually I may be a bit premature in that comment, but basically I was alluding to Richmond's importance in the 19th century as a shipping center. However, it is starting to diminish a bit with the dirigible travel and rail expanding far beyond the East Coast, but it actually is still very important, and should still be the dominant city in Virginia in the early 20th century.

 

[Glen]

This is very cool, and if there is no objection, will accept it as canon for the Dominion of Southern America timeline.

Here's an OOB proposal for a typical Southron division (one being an infantry division, the latter a cavalry one);

-1900 INFANTRY DIVISION

3 Infantry Regiments (Fusiliers, Grenadiers, Rifles, etc.) (5,975)
1 Light Mortar Battery (50)
8 x 3" mortar
1 M.G. Battalion (920)
64 x H.M.G.
4 Infantry Battalion (1,251)
1 Machine Gun Company (206)
16 x H.M.G.
4 Infantry Company (261)
16 x L.M.G.

1 Artillery Regiment (3,972)
3 Field Artillery Battalion (1,202)
3 Field Gun Battery (208)
8 x 4" Gun
1 Heavy Battery (318)
8 x 6" Gun
1 Field Howitzer Battery (260)
1 Mortar Battalion (367)
3 Medium Battery (81)
8 x 4.85" Mortar
1 Heavy Battery (123)
8 x 9.2" Mortar

1 Cavalry Squadron (197)
4 Cavalry Troop (49)

1 Medical Battalion
3 Field Hospital (200 beds) (191)
1 Sanitary Section (28)

1 Engineer Battalion (1,908)
3 Field Company (206)
1 Bridging Section (61)
1 Searchlight Section (73)
6 x 32" Spot
1 Signals Company (346)

1 Supply Train (1,341)

Total Strength:
25,137 all ranks (12,528 rifles)
768 L.M.G.
384 H.M.G.
48 mortars
96 guns
24 howitzers


-1900 CAVALRY DIVISION

3 Cavalry Regiments (Horse Guards, Dragoons, Hussars, etc.) (4,127)
1 Heavy Machine Gun Battalion (970)
16 x 1" M.G.
32 x H.M.G.
4 Cavalry Battalion (789)
4 Cavalry Squadron (197)
4 Cavalry Troop

1 Horse Artillery Regiment (5,183)
3 Horse Artillery Battalion (1,327)
3 Light Battery (234)
8 x 3" Gun
2 Medium Battery (312)
8 x 4" Gun
1 Field Artillery Battalion (1,202)
3 Field Gun Battery (206)
8 x 4" Gun
1 Heavy Battery (318)
8 x 6" Gun
1 Field Howitzer Battery (260)
8 x 4.85" Howitzer

1 Medical Battalion (602)
3 Field Hospital (200 Beds) (191)
1 Sanitary section (28)

1 Veterinary Section (218)

1 Supply Train (617)

Total Strength:
19,002 all ranks (9,216 sabres)
48 x 1" M.G.
96 x H.M.G.
152 guns
8 howitzers

The standard infantry rifle (as indicated in a previous update) is a lever action rifle, which given the sort of ammo used by the UK would likely be an alt-Winchester M1895. Furthermore, something tells me that the LMG in use would be something like THIS, since it's lighter than a Lewis Gun and belt-feedable to boot (I know the timeframe doesn't match up, to which my reply would be that the overall tech level seems to be ahead of OTL, although I may be mistaken). Other than that, I'd imagine most Southron kit would be that of Britain's. Thoughts?

 

[Glen]

if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that richmond grew into something of a regional hub for its section of virginia, but is increasingly falling into the shadow of the key cities. As the country becomes more integrated and the major cities assume an ever more central role, the smaller regional cities probably lose their impotance and fall into the orbit of the nearest key city.

This is true, but on further reflection, around 1900, Richmond probably is one of those cities.

 

[Glen]

Fair enough, though I'd wager being a border town and the southern hub of TTL BosWosh (BoshRich? Seeing as they have Canada, maybe the MontRich or QueRich?), the fall from grace may be less than one would think.

As per my previous comments recently, I would tend to agree.

At least ITTL and in this period of history, New York to Quebec City may be more building, though undoubtedly the rest of the Northeast coast would also be building...

 

[Glen]

Thing is because they had Canada, and Washington - the capital - is located further north and very close to NYC more attention was placed to the Great Lakes area earlier.

This is very true.

Baltimore probably also suffered as a consequence.

In terms of land trade, true, but it is still a very important port.

And without D.C. being a link between Philly and Richmond, Richmond is likely much more an isolate of an urban area than in OTL. Rather than a BosWash corridor, I'd say its MontPhilly in TTL.

Might stretch down to Baltimore as well, as its not that far from Philly. I agree that Richmond is probably its own metropolis and not part of a greater complex. Of course, all this assumes that urban sprawl develops along parallel lines to OTL.

On the brighter note, without a Civil War, Richmond has likely retained quite a bit of its Southern character.

Yes and no - it clearly hasn't been devastated by war, but Southern implies foreign ITTL, so may be a bit more influenced by the north than OTL.

The important border towns, I'm guessing, are likely farther West, by the rivers where shipping would be more important. Whatever is in the Ohio/Mississippi confluence here is likely big and important.

True.

As is anything along Tennessee River, on both sides.

Yes, though IIRC it's called the Cherokee River ITTL (need to check). And of course, it is in the DSA.

 

[Glen]

This probably wouldn't be so if so much of the South hadn't left the US (if the rest of the Upper South had stayed, Richmond and Baltimore probably would've fared better than ITTL, as at least there'd be something to counterbalance having the capital so far north).

To a degree, yes, but it also would have increased sectionalism in the region.

And for what it's worth, I think of most of the Richmond area as STILL mostly Southern in nature in OTL especially when compared to NoVA or (arguably) the Norfolk/VA Beach area.

That is probably a fair assessment.

I agree though that the "Little Egypt" area of the US would see greater importance in terms of trade; there, as well as Kentucky and Virginia, would probably be seen as "Southern-in-nature" the same way the Great Lakes states are IOTL when compared to Canada (it really is remarkable how much Great Lakes Americans and Canadians in general have in common, as they sound similar, enjoy similar sports, eat similar cuisine styles, etc. I imagine the border states of the US, especially the ones of the "Old South", would have a similar relationship with the DSA).

Maybe this, but no more.

 

[Glen]

Well, okay. My first ancestor from that particular family who arrived in the Colonies did so sometime in the 1650s or 1660s I think, and settled in Delaware.

Probably still Americans ITTL then.

 

[FleetMac]

This is very cool, and if there is no objection, will accept it as canon for the Dominion of Southern America timeline.

Please do, it's what I put it there for .

Of course, we wouldn't have an OOB yet for a possible Southron Navy (seeing as how they're still tied closely to the UK), but would there be a homegrown air corps yet?

 

[Glen]

Ah, Delaware....such an interesting state (sadly, I've only ever been once, and that was passing thru).

I used to drive through the edge of it fairly often, been there a few times.

Indeed, I'd say you'd be a lock for being a Yank ITTL with that early an arrival date. Bear in mind, arrival date would matter more than religion in terms of determining which side of the border you'd be on in the TL (after all, I'm sure there have been Catholic Ulster-Scots and Protestant Irishmen at some point, hence my point about religion being more of a clue than a smoking-gun determination).

Correct. Also, the Presbyterian Ulster Scots pretty much came over in the early 1700s and ended up being ardent Revolutionaries. Presbyterians may be the exception to the rule.

While I'm thinking about it, what did you think about the OOB? It's the first one I've written before, am I missing anything?

It seemed pretty good to me, but it would be good to get confirmation from those who have more experience with those things.

 

[Glen]

Please do, it's what I put it there for .

Of course, we wouldn't have an OOB yet for a possible Southron Navy (seeing as how they're still tied closely to the UK), but would there be a homegrown air corps yet?

Maybe a small one.

 

[FleetMac]

To a degree, yes, but it also would have increased sectionalism in the region.

I can understand that, although it wouldn't be as bad as it would be if the Deep South were included (South Carolina, Louisiana, etc.). Would the inclusion of OTL's Canada balance out that trend, or make it worse in your opinion?

Maybe this, but no more.

Mind you, I'm not trying to make a case for those states being "the South-in-all-but-name" ITTL, just drawing a parallel to OTL (from what I've seen in upstate New Yorkers and Michiganites compared to people from Canada), albeit one oriented in the other direction.

Maybe a small one.

I'm thinking a corps of blimps and small fixed-wing aircraft for spotting and recon missions, not so much a branch of fighters or bombers. I don't suppose rotary-wing aircraft are in the making quite yet?

 

[Umbric Man]

Hey, even if it's just discussion, this is back. Sweet!

 

[Glen]

The date is June 3, 1913. The United States of America it is celebrating its national birthday!

 

[W.W.A.F.T.]

ah wonderful, so glad to see this place up and humming again. thanks by the way for the feedback on my comment.

 

[Glen]

I can understand that, although it wouldn't be as bad as it would be if the Deep South were included (South Carolina, Louisiana, etc.).

True.

Would the inclusion of OTL's Canada balance out that trend, or make it worse in your opinion?

If I follow you, the inclusion of both OTL's Canada and the Upper South in a USA would likely have led to more sectionalism in such a USA as opposed to the situation of TTL's USA where Southern Culture is definitely considered foreign in many ways.

Mind you, I'm not trying to make a case for those states being "the South-in-all-but-name" ITTL, just drawing a parallel to OTL (from what I've seen in upstate New Yorkers and Michiganites compared to people from Canada), albeit one oriented in the other direction.

It's a fair comparison.

I'm thinking a corps of blimps

Initially

and small fixed-wing aircraft

Later.

for spotting and recon missions, not so much a branch of fighters or bombers.

Probably, but given the length of the DSA's borders they will definitely tend to airforces with range, whereas the UK might focus more on performance over range.

I don't suppose rotary-wing aircraft are in the making quite yet?

Stay tuned...

 

[Glen]

Hey, even if it's just discussion, this is back. Sweet!

Thanks. Let's see if I can't get some updates up and running - real life has been humming but I am technically on vacation now so hopefully...

 

[Glen]

ah wonderful, so glad to see this place up and humming again. thanks by the way for the feedback on my comment.

Thanks to you, too. Comments always deserve feedback! Thank you!!