Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[Glen]

One other thing to think of in regards to petroleum development - around the turn of the century, there was discovered a way to turn coal to oil - since the USA had ample oil on its own, the technology was for the most part ignored. With the biggest American oil deposits from OTL in the DSA, maybe this would be more persued, especially since the USA ITTL has even more coal.

The coal/oil dichotomy will impact developments in the two nations early on, but remember this - the USA has Alaska....

 

[Glen]

In that case, if it's not too much trouble I would like a rough estimate of population by province (to figure out which ones will statistically produce more units and/or manpower) and a summary of the most politically vital cities within the DSA for similar reasons.

Essentially, I imagine the layout will resemble that of OTL's Canada, with allowances made for different provincial titles and "specialty" titles for battalions and regiments (special attention paid to Tribal outfits in Indiana, pre-existing Texan units, etc.). Furthermore, we'd likely see a relatively cavalry and horse-artillery heavy army due to the South's tradition of military horsemanship (this is true of OTL, and honestly I don't see that changing in TTL) and emphasis on mobility and flexibility to make up for the lack of relative industry/numbers. Lastly, guerrilla/irregular warfare will probably be taken seriously due to similar experiences during the Slaver Rebellion and the Battle of San Antonio, wherein the value of raiding the enemy's rear lines and fighting last-ditch holding actions was demonstrated.

Of course, there won't be a separate navy until later in the 20th. century (assuming a similar "Commonwealth"-type environment arises), with the Royal Navy providing seaborne combat ability for the DSA. What do you think?

Hmmm, the provincial populations will still be proportionately roughly the same as OTL at least for purposes of estimating relative strengths, except that North Carolina, Carleton, and to a lesser extent, Indiana, have bigger populations relative to the same areas IOTL due to the history of the first two as border states with the US (that Loyalists settled heavily and have more importance in terms of trade) and Indiana as a Native homeland as opposed to the OTL Southern back of nowhere. Cuba and Richport also have slightly higher populations than OTL due to greater development under the British than they received under the Spanish. Hispaniola probably about the same population numbers but shifted towards an older demographic due to being more (relatively) politically stable and developed than OTL.

A lot of the same cities that were strategically important IOTL will remain so ITTL (or their close neighbor analogues). The exceptions will be the old coastal capitals are still the same as the colonial ones and thus retain more importance such as New Berne, Charleston, Savannah, St. Augustine, Pensacola, New Orleans, etc. Baton Rouge is obviously important as well as Havana. Also important are some border towns near the DSA/USA border that were not so important IOTL.

Sounds about right, though should be noted that the Caribbean and East Coast provinces have strong Royal Navy traditions in terms of service, so may see that reflected in Royal Navy differences in organization ITTL...

 

[FleetMac]

Here's a little something I put together, in terms of regimental names. I'll work on actual unit compositions in terms of TO&E if you'd like;

Regular Force
1. Royal Southern American Rangers
2. Lord Mount's Artillery of Horse (Royal Southerners)
3. Southern Volunteer Regiment (Turner's Cavaliers)
4. The Sable Legion (RASA)
5. Randolph's Mounted Rifles (Royal Southerners)
6. The Royal San Diego Horse Guards (Sikhail's Boys)
7. The Charleston Rifles (RASA)
8. The Royal Volunteer Partisan Cavalry (Roosevelt's Raiders)
9. The Royal New Mexican Irregular Cavalry (Wolfgang's Wolves)
10. The Carolina Regiment (RASA)
11. The Queen's Nassau Rifles (Bahamian Regiment) (RASA)
12. 1st Mulberry Rifles (Royal Mountaineers)
13. Brown's Texas Dragoons (Royal Southerners)
14. The Jackson Brigade (Royal Southerners)

Reserve Force (Primary Reserve)
1. 12 Regimiento de Caballería Cubano (12th. Cuban Cavalry Regiment)
2. 1st Dragoons (Queen's Own Floridians)
3. The Lesser Antilles Regiment (RASA)
4. The Royal Southern American Hussars (New Bern)
5. The Carleton Highlander Regiment (Lord Dorchester's Own)
6. The Cherokee and Choctaw Light Horse
7. The East Texas Dragoons
8. The King's Own Cimaroan Regiment (RASA)
9. The Chattahoochee Dragoons
10. The Dover Horse Artillery (Royal Texans)
11. The Royal Louisiana Light Horse (RASA)
12. The St. Augustine Regiment (RASA)
13. 6th. Royal Carolinian Foot Guards
14. The Floridian Grenadier Guards
15. The Queen's Own West Texas Rifles
16. The Black Watch (Royal Southern Regiment) of Carleton
17. The Louisiana Creole Volunteers
18. The Royal Fusilier Regiment of the Mississippi
19. The Red River Rifles
20. The Princess of Wales' Own Georgian Regiment
21. The Royal Augusta Regiment
22. The Randolph and Grymes Overland Regiment
23. The Royal Welsh Fusiliers of Arkansas
24. The Talladega Native Fusiliers
25. The Lord Dundonald Scots (Royal Carletonians)
26. The Austin Rifles (Royal Texans)
27. The Royal New Mexican Regiment
28. Los Fusileros de Bayamon
29. El Regimiento de Santiago (Fusileros Cubanos)
30. Los Fusileros de Santo Domingo
31. The Royal Trinidad and Tobago Grenadiers
32. The Royal South Carolina Regiment
33. The Queen's Own Georgetown Regiment
34. The Western Arkansas Highlanders
35. The St. George's Town Regiment (Royal Bermudans)
36. The Royal Austin Dragoons (Brown's Bushwackers) (RASA)
37. The Cameron Highlanders of Pensacola
38. The Royal Richport Rifles
39. The Royal Albion Sikhs
40. 38th. Queen's Mobile Light Rifles
41. El Regimiento de Samaná
42. The Cape Fear Highlanders
43. The Creek Regiment
44. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of the Appalachians
45. The Lake Okeechobee Regiment
46. The Upper Indiana Regiment
47. The Royal Chickasaw Rifles
48. The 15th. Apalachicola Rifles
49. The Royal Savannah Regiment
50. The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of East Florida (Falmouth Grenadiers)
51. The Royal Kennesaw Regiment
52. The Petite Roche Rifles
53. Les Fusiliers de Baton Rouge
54. 52nd. Queen's Own Overland Regiment (Hillsborough Rifles)
55. The 29th. Seaforth Highlanders of Georgia
56. The Southern American Scottish Regiment (Princess Mary's)
57. The Royal Spanish Town Regiment (Jamaican Regulars)
58. 1st Southern American Sappers
59. 5th Royal Engineers (New Orleans Grenadiers)
60. The New Bern Scottish Regiment (Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's Own)
61. The Royal Havana Regiment
62. 1st Regiment, Royal Southern American Horse Artillery
63. 2nd Regiment, Royal Southern American Horse Artillery
64. 5th Regimiento de Artilleria Ligera (Royal Cubans)
65. 2nd Field Artillery Regiment, RASA
66. 3rd Field Artillery Regiment, RASA
67. 5th (North Carolina) Field Artillery Regiment, RASA
68. 6th Field Artillery Regiment, RASA
69. Royal Austin Regiment (Texan Fusiliers)
70. 10th Field Regiment (West Floridian), RASA
71. 5th (Albion) Field Artillery Regiment, RASA
72. Royal Cumberland Fusiliers (Clarksville Overlanders)
73. 82nd Queen's Nueces Border Rifles (Royal San Antonians)
74. The East Albion Navajo Fusiliers
75. Royal El Paso Rifles (Texan Scouts)
76. 91st. Royal New London Rifles
77. The Brookhaven and Peachtree Light Cavalry (Royal Georgians)
78. Royal Texan Comanche Scouts

 

[Glen]

Wow! There probably needs to be some minor tweaks here and there, but overally I just LOVE this! FleetMac, you have captured much of the history of the DSA in these names!! There seems to be a bit of a paucity of Texan regiments, though. Is that because you assume most of that role goes to the Royal Southern American Rangers (not necessarily a wrong assumption)?

Also, what exactly does RSAA stand for again?

Here's a little something I put together, in terms of regimental names. I'll work on actual unit compositions in terms of TO&E if you'd like;

Regular Force
1. Royal Southern American Rangers
2. Lord Mount's Artillery of Horse (Royal Southerners)
3. Southern Volunteer Regiment (Turner's Cavaliers)
4. The Sable Legion (RSAA)
5. Randolph's Mounted Rifles (Royal Southerners)
6. The Dominion Horse Guards
7. The Charleston Rifles (RSAA)
8. 8th Southern American Partisan Cavalry
9. The Carolina Regiment (RSAA)
10. The Queen's Nassau Rifles (Bahamian Regiment) (RSAA)
11. 1st Mulberry Rifles

Reserve Force (Primary Reserve)
1. 12 Regimiento de Caballería Cubano (12th. Cuban Cavalry Regiment)
2. 1st Dragoons (Queen's Own Floridians)
3. The Lesser Antilles Regiment (RSAA)
4. The Royal Southern American Hussars (New Bern)
5. The Carleton Highlander Regiment (Lord Dorchester's Own)
6. The Cherokee and Choctaw Light Horse
7. The East Texas Dragoons
8. The King's Own Cimaroan Regiment (RSAA)
9. The Chattahoochee Dragoons
10. The Dover Horse (Royal Texans)
11. The Royal Louisiana Light Horse (RSAA)
12. The St. Augustine Regiment (RSAA)
13. Royal Carolinian Foot Guards
14. The Floridian Grenadier Guards
15. The Queen's Own Rifles of Jamaica
16. The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Carleton
17. The Louisiana Creole Volunteers
18. The Royal Fusilier Regiment of the Mississippi
19. The Red River Rifles
20. The Princess of Wales' Own Georgian Regiment
21. The Royal Augusta Regiment
22. The Randolph and Grymes Overland Regiment
23. The Royal Welsh Fusiliers of Arkansas
24. The Talladega Native Fusiliers
25. The Lord Dundonald Scots (Royal Carletonians)
26. The Austin Rifles (Royal Texans)
27. The Royal New Mexican Regiment
28. Los Fusileros de Bayamon
29. El Regimiento de Santiago (Fusileros Cubanos)
30. Los Fusileros de Santo Domingo
31. The Royal Trinidad and Tobago Grenadiers
32. The Royal South Carolina Regiment
33. The West Nova Scotia Regiment
34. The Western Arkansas Highlanders
35. The St. George's Town Regiment (Royal Bermudans)
36. The Ponce Regiment (RSAA)
37. The Cameron Highlanders of Pensacola
38. The Royal Richport Rifles
39. The Royal Albion Sikhs
40. Queen's Pensacola Light Rifles
41. El Regimiento de Samaná
42. The Cape Fear Highlanders
43. The Creek Regiment
44. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of the Appalachians
45. The Lake Okeechobee Regiment
46. The North Indiana Regiment
47. The Royal Chickasaw Rifles
48. The Apalachicola Rifles
49. The Royal Savannah Regiment
50. The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of East Florida
51. The Royal Kennesaw Regiment
52. The Petite Roche Rifles
53. Les Fusiliers de Baton Rouge
54. The Seaforth Highlanders of Georgia
55. The Southern American Scottish Regiment (Princess Mary's)
56. The Royal Spanish Town Regiment (Jamaican Regulars)
57. 1st Southern American Sappers
58. 5th Royal Engineers (New Orleans Grenadiers)
59. The New Bern Scottish Regiment (Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's Own)
60. The Royal Havana Regiment
61. 1st Regiment, Royal Southern American Horse Artillery
62. 2nd Regiment, Royal Southern American Horse Artillery
63. 5th Regimiento de Artilleria Ligera (Royal Cubans)
64. 2nd Field Artillery Regiment, RSAA
65. 3rd Field Artillery Regiment, RSAA
66. 5th (North Carolina) Field Artillery Regiment, RSAA
67. 6th Field Artillery Regiment, RSAA
68. 7th Austin Regiment, RSAA
69. 10th Field Regiment, RSAA
70. 5th (Albion) Field Artillery Regiment, RSAA

 

[FleetMac]

Wow! There probably needs to be some minor tweaks here and there, but overally I just LOVE this! FleetMac, you have captured much of the history of the DSA in these names!! There seems to be a bit of a paucity of Texan regiments, though. Is that because you assume most of that role goes to the Royal Southern American Rangers (not necessarily a wrong assumption)?

Also, what exactly does RSAA stand for again?

RSAA means "Royal Southern American Army", in place of "Royal Canadian Army" of OTL. I can rewrite it as "Royal Army of Southern America" or what-have-you.

Well I was working on this till 0130, local time after all . I actually wanted there to be a solid number of Texan units, but I was afraid I was overdoing it as it was (I wanted a fairly "even" representation of each province, based on prior information). I can add/modify more if there should be more. What other tweaks would you like there to be?

 

[naraht]

.. except that North Carolina, Carleton, and to a lesser extent, Indiana, have bigger populations ...

... The exceptions will be the old coastal capitals are still the same as the colonial ones and thus retain more importance such as New Berne, Charleston, Savannah, St. Augustine, Pensacola, New Orleans, etc...

Some of my wife's family is from New Berne, given the combination above, can you describe what the city is like in 20th century DSA and any OTL cities that it is similar to?

 

[thekingsguard]

The coal/oil dichotomy will impact developments in the two nations early on, but remember this - the USA has Alaska....

And Alberta - though they would still have far more coal, more than any other nation on the planet, even more so than OTL. So there is some logic to supporting coal oil far earilier than OTL.

Also, the US, thanks to having OTL Canada, would have greater access to both hydroelectric power and uranium, so theres that for plotting future power grids.

Some of my wife's family is from New Berne, given the combination above, can you describe what the city is like in 20th century DSA and any OTL cities that it is similar to?

Indeed - I'm curious to see what my native Richmond would be like sans-slavery, sans-civil war, plus nearby national border. I'm more than open to suggest ideas at the very least

 

[naraht]

Indeed - I'm curious to see what my native Richmond would be like sans-slavery, sans-civil war, plus nearby national border. I'm more than open to suggest ideas at the very least

Richmond isn't the Virginia City that I would expect the most changes for, I'd expect it in the tidewater area. Great Port and right next to the national border. Also, the change of the capital to Richmond happens *after* the POD, have we confirmed that it is the capita iTTL? Also, I'm curious as to just how the Alexandria, VA/Georgetown, MD twin cities are doing..

 

[FleetMac]

And that's assuming you'd be a Virginian in TTL at all; after doing some research, for example, it looks like the butterflies the POD produced would make me a North Carolinian or Carletonian given my family's Protestant Ulster-Irish descent (which post #2231 indicated largely moved to BSA and later the Dominion, as opposed to the US). I'm just saying, given one's family history, one's home ITTL might end up different. At any rate, Virginia IMO would likely still be semi-recognizable by modern standards but with a heavier Appalachian/proto-Pennsylvanian slant.

IIRC the Georgetown-Alexandria area still ends up quite important economically speaking (being the biggest port-city on the Potomac and all).

 

[The Uchronian]

And that's assuming you'd be a Virginian in TTL at all; after doing some research, for example, it looks like the butterflies the POD produced would make me a North Carolinian or Carletonian given my family's Protestant Ulster-Irish descent (which post #2231 indicated largely moved to BSA and later the Dominion, as opposed to the US). I'm just saying, given one's family history, one's home ITTL might end up different. At any rate, Virginia IMO would likely still be semi-recognizable by modern standards but with a heavier Appalachian/proto-Pennsylvanian slant.

IIRC the Georgetown-Alexandria area still ends up quite important economically speaking (being the biggest port-city on the Potomac and all).

One of my 4th great-grandfathers, Robert Land, was himself a Virginian, born in 1776, but his paternal ancestors came from England itself, though I'm not sure about his mother, Sarah(Moore is a name which ultimately has Gaelic origins, so maybe her family was Ulsterian?).

Glen, if you're okay with this, I was hoping maybe at least some of the Land family stay in Virginia, 'cause I wanted to do something with some of them in the future.

 

[thekingsguard]

Richmond isn't the Virginia City that I would expect the most changes for, I'd expect it in the tidewater area. Great Port and right next to the national border. Also, the change of the capital to Richmond happens *after* the POD, have we confirmed that it is the capita iTTL? Also, I'm curious as to just how the Alexandria, VA/Georgetown, MD twin cities are doing..

I figure VA Beach/Norfolk would be the Seattle to Richmond's Portland. Both would get a nice injection from being a border town - maybe enough that the cities overlap, ala Dallas-Ft.Worth or San Francisco-Oakland.

Richmond would likely still be the capital, since it served as the state capital when Williamsburg was captured by the British. It was made permanant state capitol under our first governor, Patrick Henry, so, very likely it remains so.

One thing different about Alexandria/Georgetown - the NOVA area wouldn't have the economic boom it has without the National Capital nearby. All the contracters and immigrants and DC residents looking for lower taxes are what made the area the wealthiest in the Country - ITTL it would likely be a less developed Baltimore, and another city in the OTL BosWash, the BosRich.

 

[FleetMac]

One of my 4th great-grandfathers, Robert Land, was himself a Virginian, born in 1776, but his paternal ancestors came from England itself, though I'm not sure about his mother, Sarah(Moore is a name which ultimately has Gaelic origins, so maybe her family was Ulsterian?).

A good way to tell is if your family was Catholic or Protestant; if the former, you'd probably have straight up Irish ancestry on that side of the family, if the latter then it's likely you'd have Ulster ancestry. Of course that's not a hard and fast rule (my dad grew up in a Catholic household, but his folks from what I remember converted to it from Presbyterian), but a general bellweather. The other way to tell is whether one's ancestor arrived before or after the POD, given what you've said you probably would've still been an American ITTL.

 

[Glen]

RSAA means "Royal Southern American Army", in place of "Royal Canadian Army" of OTL. I can rewrite it as "Royal Army of Southern America" or what-have-you.

Well I was working on this till 0130, local time after all . I actually wanted there to be a solid number of Texan units, but I was afraid I was overdoing it as it was (I wanted a fairly "even" representation of each province, based on prior information). I can add/modify more if there should be more. What other tweaks would you like there to be?

Hmm, RASA is more pronouncable than RSAA, so maybe that...

Texans have a lot of legacy from their brief time as an independent republic. The rest of tweaks I'll have to reserve for later.

 

[Glen]

Some of my wife's family is from New Berne, given the combination above,

Cool.

can you describe what the city is like in 20th century DSA and any OTL cities that it is similar to?

Probably a mix of Charleston and Norfolk, but a little bit more busy.

 

[Glen]

And Alberta - though they would still have far more coal, more than any other nation on the planet, even more so than OTL. So there is some logic to supporting coal oil far earilier than OTL.

I'd say longer rather than earlier, but yeah.

Also, the US, thanks to having OTL Canada, would have greater access to both hydroelectric power and uranium, so theres that for plotting future power grids.

Indeed there is.

Indeed - I'm curious to see what my native Richmond would be like sans-slavery, sans-civil war, plus nearby national border. I'm more than open to suggest ideas at the very least

Richmond will be scenic, with its heyday starting to recede.

 

[thekingsguard]

Richmond will be scenic, with its heyday starting to recede.

Waht do you mean by the latter part of that?

 

[FleetMac]

Here's an OOB proposal for a typical Southron division (one being an infantry division, the latter a cavalry one);

-1900 INFANTRY DIVISION

3 Infantry Regiments (Fusiliers, Grenadiers, Rifles, etc.) (5,975)
1 Light Mortar Battery (50)
8 x 3" mortar
1 M.G. Battalion (920)
64 x H.M.G.
4 Infantry Battalion (1,251)
1 Machine Gun Company (206)
16 x H.M.G.
4 Infantry Company (261)
16 x L.M.G.

1 Artillery Regiment (3,972)
3 Field Artillery Battalion (1,202)
3 Field Gun Battery (208)
8 x 4" Gun
1 Heavy Battery (318)
8 x 6" Gun
1 Field Howitzer Battery (260)
1 Mortar Battalion (367)
3 Medium Battery (81)
8 x 4.85" Mortar
1 Heavy Battery (123)
8 x 9.2" Mortar

1 Cavalry Squadron (197)
4 Cavalry Troop (49)

1 Medical Battalion
3 Field Hospital (200 beds) (191)
1 Sanitary Section (28)

1 Engineer Battalion (1,908)
3 Field Company (206)
1 Bridging Section (61)
1 Searchlight Section (73)
6 x 32" Spot
1 Signals Company (346)

1 Supply Train (1,341)

Total Strength:
25,137 all ranks (12,528 rifles)
768 L.M.G.
384 H.M.G.
48 mortars
96 guns
24 howitzers


-1900 CAVALRY DIVISION

3 Cavalry Regiments (Horse Guards, Dragoons, Hussars, etc.) (4,127)
1 Heavy Machine Gun Battalion (970)
16 x 1" M.G.
32 x H.M.G.
4 Cavalry Battalion (789)
4 Cavalry Squadron (197)
4 Cavalry Troop

1 Horse Artillery Regiment (5,183)
3 Horse Artillery Battalion (1,327)
3 Light Battery (234)
8 x 3" Gun
2 Medium Battery (312)
8 x 4" Gun
1 Field Artillery Battalion (1,202)
3 Field Gun Battery (206)
8 x 4" Gun
1 Heavy Battery (318)
8 x 6" Gun
1 Field Howitzer Battery (260)
8 x 4.85" Howitzer

1 Medical Battalion (602)
3 Field Hospital (200 Beds) (191)
1 Sanitary section (28)

1 Veterinary Section (218)

1 Supply Train (617)

Total Strength:
19,002 all ranks (9,216 sabres)
48 x 1" M.G.
96 x H.M.G.
152 guns
8 howitzers

The standard infantry rifle (as indicated in a previous update) is a lever action rifle, which given the sort of ammo used by the UK would likely be an alt-Winchester M1895. Furthermore, something tells me that the LMG in use would be something like THIS, since it's lighter than a Lewis Gun and belt-feedable to boot (I know the timeframe doesn't match up, to which my reply would be that the overall tech level seems to be ahead of OTL, although I may be mistaken). Other than that, I'd imagine most Southron kit would be that of Britain's. Thoughts?

 

[W.W.A.F.T.]

Waht do you mean by the latter part of that?

if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that richmond grew into something of a regional hub for its section of virginia, but is increasingly falling into the shadow of the key cities. As the country becomes more integrated and the major cities assume an ever more central role, the smaller regional cities probably lose their impotance and fall into the orbit of the nearest key city.

 

[thekingsguard]

if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that richmond grew into something of a regional hub for its section of virginia, but is increasingly falling into the shadow of the key cities. As the country becomes more integrated and the major cities assume an ever more central role, the smaller regional cities probably lose their impotance and fall into the orbit of the nearest key city.

Fair enough, though I'd wager being a border town and the southern hub of TTL BosWosh (BoshRich? Seeing as they have Canada, maybe the MontRich or QueRich?), the fall from grace may be less than one would think.

 

[jycee]

Fair enough, though I'd wager being a border town and the southern hub of TTL BosWosh (BoshRich? Seeing as they have Canada, maybe the MontRich or QueRich?), the fall from grace may be less than one would think.

Thing is because they had Canada, and Washington - the capital - is located further north and very close to NYC more attention was placed to the Great Lakes area earlier. Baltimore probably also suffered as a consequence. And without D.C. being a link between Philly and Richmond, Richmond is likely much more an isolate of an urban area than in OTL. Rather than a BosWash corridor, I'd say its MontPhilly in TTL.

On the brighter note, without a Civil War, Richmond has likely retained quite a bit of its Southern character.

The important border towns, I'm guessing, are likely farther West, by the rivers where shipping would be more important. Whatever is in the Ohio/Mississippi confluence here is likely big and important. As is anything along Tennessee River, on both sides.