Patience Some time life gets in the way, heck I've gone up to three months between updates.
Diesel Kriegsmarine
- Thread starter miketr
- Start date
Patience Some time life gets in the way, heck I've gone up to three months between updates.
Trolling is getting to be a regular thing with you.
Strongly suggest you stop.
Kicked for a week.
I hope to have the full post ready for tomorrow evening but to generate some discussion in the mean time.
On the morning of October 5th, the capital ships of Battlegroup Lütjens closed on HX-152 and Admiral King received a report of unknown warships closing from the North. Very quickly the Americans and Germans confirmed the identity of each other. King had USS Texas and USS Arkansas along with numerous smaller escorts while had Lütjens Bismarck, Friedrich der Große, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and four destroyers. Otto Ciliax was flying his flag on Graf Zeppelin escorted by Lützow / Deutschland, Admiral Hipper and four Destroyers 25 miles behind Lütjens. A brief exchange of challenges between the American and Germans followed. Where the Americans warned the Germans off and the Germans ordered the Americans to allow the ships to be inspected for contraband. Neither side backed down but both were reluctant to fire the first shot.
On the morning of October 5th, the capital ships of Battlegroup Lütjens closed on HX-152 and Admiral King received a report of unknown warships closing from the North. Very quickly the Americans and Germans confirmed the identity of each other. King had USS Texas and USS Arkansas along with numerous smaller escorts while had Lütjens Bismarck, Friedrich der Große, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and four destroyers. Otto Ciliax was flying his flag on Graf Zeppelin escorted by Lützow / Deutschland, Admiral Hipper and four Destroyers 25 miles behind Lütjens. A brief exchange of challenges between the American and Germans followed. Where the Americans warned the Germans off and the Germans ordered the Americans to allow the ships to be inspected for contraband. Neither side backed down but both were reluctant to fire the first shot.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
If I were the US Commander I would be very wary about provoking a shooting war given the imbalance of forces. Yes, you get the US into the war, but through a crippling naval defeat that could be avoided rather than a sneak attack where the Americans are the innocent victims (not so sure about the innocent bit...)
It is going to be very hard to justify. Not going to happen without presidential orders. Not going to be easy to explain for the president that he ordered the US into the war.
He is going quite far as it is. Time for this to hit the morning news in the US?
But also by know a tricky thing to back down from.
That, and it isn't justifiable. The Germans asked to search the ships for contraband...which is their right, if the ships are headed to the UK.
Elbeübung (Operation Elbe) Part 2, September 29th to October 5th 1941
Elbeübung (Operation Elbe) Part 2, September 29th to October 5th 1941
As battlegroup Lütjens approached the Denmark Straights an observer was detected. A Lockheed Hudson belonging to RAF Squadron 269 out of the Wick airfield in Iceland was trailing the battlegroup. Quickly Bf-109s were sent to deal with the unwanted guest but not 15 minutes had gone by when another unwanted visitor, a Lockheed Ventura of RAF Squadron 251 out of Reykjavik was detected. Admiral Lütjens hope for an undetected passage fo the straights had been dashed.
Over the next several hours the pilots of Graf Zeppelin repeatedly flew up to intercept and attempt to drive off their trailers. More often than not the patrol aircraft would find shelter in the clouds. Deciding to rely on the speed of his task group the battlegroup made 21 knots, max speed of the Dithmarschen support ships.
The British had the advantage of priceless intelligence and knew the exact location of the German Battlegroup through its entire transit of the straights. The problem was they lacked the combat power to do anything about it. The fast battlegroup centered on the aircraft carriers HMS Furious and Victorious was too far away. Squadrons 251 and 269 made one attempt strike the German force but the twin engine bombers where no match for the German fighters.
With the German battlegroup about to breakout into the North Atlantic orders where given for convoys to divert south out of the path of the German advance.
On Friedrich der Große Admiral Lütjens decided to head hard west and south on the assumption that any pursuit would be from the East in the form of the British Home Fleet. Two days out of the Denmark Straights the HX-152 was sited by a U Boat and the convoys location transmitted. At once the German battlegroup moved to intercept. A day later air scouts from Graf Zeppelin overflew the convoy, it was made up of at least two 50 ships with a heavy escort. Including two battleships, the Germans identified the battleships as belonging to the United States Navy; USS Texas and USS Arkansas.
At once Admiral Lütjens was placed in a quandary. While there had been reports of clashes between U-Boats and American destroyers no surface battles had occurred and American warships had been sold to the British. No reports of anything larger than destroyers had reached the Germans but it didn’t mean such a sale hadn’t occurred. While closing on the large convoy Admiral Lütjens radioed Berlin for directions on how to proceed.
Meanwhile Admiral Ernst King was flying his flag on USS Texas as CnC Atlantic Fleet. When word of the breakout of the German squadron King had been diverted to the nearest convoy. USS Texas and USS Arkansas had been on neutrality patrol at the start of Elbeübung (Operation Elbe). Admiral King unlike Admiral Lütjens faced no quandary; ships under American escort were to be protected.
On the morning of October 5th, the capital ships of Battlegroup Lütjens closed on HX-152 and Admiral King received a report of unknown warships closing from the North. Very quickly the Americans and Germans confirmed the identity of each other. King had USS Texas and USS Arkansas along with numerous smaller escorts while Lütjens had Bismarck, Friedrich der Große, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and four destroyers. Otto Ciliax was flying his flag on Graf Zeppelin escorted by Lützow / Deutschland, Admiral Hipper and four Destroyers 25 miles behind Lütjens. A brief exchange of challenges between the American and Germans followed. Where the Americans warned the Germans off and the Germans ordered the Americans to allow the ships to be inspected for contraband. Neither side backed down but both were reluctant to fire the first shot.
King had a critical bit of information that Lütjens lacked the location of the Fast Elements of the British Home Fleet. The British carrier battlegroup centered on HMS Victorious and HMS Furious. The British had been steaming towards the convoy since yesterday and ran a risk by having a strike prepared and ready for rapid movement to the flight deck. Therefor as soon as the Germans had been spotted the British were notified.
In the mean time the American Admiral stalled and played for time. Attempting to fight the four battleships with only two was very long odds especially as all of the German ships were modern fast designs while Texas and Arkansas were nearly three decades old. In the end Lütjens’ reluctance to fire the first shot bough King the time needed. The four Bf-109s flying combat air patrol over Lütjens battleships spotted a large strike of aircraft coming in; the air wings from Furious and Victorious had at last arrived.
The British attack was made up of a mix of Fairey Albacores, Fairey Swordfishes, Sea Hurricanes and Grumman Martlets. The strike of fifty plus aircraft quickly swept aside the German combat air patrol. The British to avoid any chance of torpedo’s hitting the Americans or the convoy all attacked from the direction of the convoy. The bombs dropped by the Fairey Albacores did little damage. Of the twenty-four torpedo equipped aircraft three where shot down before they could attack but the remainder dropped all of their weapons. The Germans executed wild evasive maneuvers that allowed Friedrich der Große, Tirpitz and Scharnhorst to escape unscathed. Bismarck was hit three times and the might German battleship had extensive flooding along the starboard side.
What happened next is still hotly debated years after the war. Admiral King ordered his command to open fire. Because of what happened to Texas’ flag bridge later in the battle it’s not known exactly why Admiral King gave the order to open fire. Some point to the orders passed down by Admiral Stark, CnC United States Navy, to attack any German ship near or attacking a convoy as more than enough justification. Many suggest that the British attack provided the best chance King would have to achieve a victory. In any event the United States Navy was now in battle with the Kriegsmarine.
German records report that at 11:34 AM the American battleships opened fire. Lütjens was under strict orders to avoid an incident and went so far as to order a return fire hold until he saw the bright flash from one of the American Battleships from a full salvo fire. Because the German ships were doing evasive maneuvers they proved difficult targets and their own return fire was completely ineffective.
Once the British air attack ended Lütjens’ turned his ships wrath on the American ships close at hand. Over the next thirty-three minutes the American and German dreadnoughts slugged it out. Bismarck and Friedrich der Große engaged Texas while Tirpitz and Scharnhorst engaged Arkansas.
Arkansas drew first blood and then Texas. With heavy flooding on Bismarck from the torpedo hits and counter flooding the German squadron was actually slower than the American ships. The American ships each with twelve main guns put up an impressive rate of fire.
At 11:37 Arkansas hit Friedrich der Große in the conning tower but the thick 14” armor held against the 12” shell. While seconds later Texas sent a 14” shell through the super-structure of Bismarck.
A twelve-inch shell impacted the turret face of Bruno and the shock put the turret out of action for several minutes. While Texas land two shells into the belt armor of Bismarck that while they didn’t penetrate added to the German battleships flooding from leaks.
Six minutes into the battle the Germans now had the range. Scharnhorst put two shells into the aft belt of Arkansas and both went deep into the ship.
Both sides were firing as rapidly as possible but, in the end, there were four German battleships to two American. Especially as USS Arkansas shells more often than not would shatter on impact against the German armor. By 20 minutes into the battle both of the American battleships had been hit well over a dozen times with major fires raging on the ships. One such fire on USS Texas reached the five-inch magazines and major explosion rocked the American dreadnought. German records noted the explosion at 12:33 PM.
‘Might T’ as she was known to her crew was dying.
Almost immediately after the magazine explosion a 15” shell struck the flag bridge of Texas. Admiral Ernst King, United States navy and everyone with him was killed. Captain Lewis W. Comstock of Texas took command of the American force.
Comstock lead the defense for perhaps five minutes before Texas suddenly rolled over and sunk as the explosion had caused a great deal of flooding.
With Texas lost the Germans turned all of their attention on the now alone USS Arkansas. Incredibly the American battleship laid down in 1910 fought on by herself for eight more minutes before the order to abandon ship was given.
***
While King and Lütjens fought it out Ciliax had not been idle. Three out of four of his Bf-109s flying CAP over the battleships had been lost the survivor preformed a very valuable service. As the last of the British aircraft withdraw the pilot trailed the British for fifteen minutes providing a vector.
At 11:56 AM Graf Zeppelin turned into the wind.
To be continued…
As battlegroup Lütjens approached the Denmark Straights an observer was detected. A Lockheed Hudson belonging to RAF Squadron 269 out of the Wick airfield in Iceland was trailing the battlegroup. Quickly Bf-109s were sent to deal with the unwanted guest but not 15 minutes had gone by when another unwanted visitor, a Lockheed Ventura of RAF Squadron 251 out of Reykjavik was detected. Admiral Lütjens hope for an undetected passage fo the straights had been dashed.
Over the next several hours the pilots of Graf Zeppelin repeatedly flew up to intercept and attempt to drive off their trailers. More often than not the patrol aircraft would find shelter in the clouds. Deciding to rely on the speed of his task group the battlegroup made 21 knots, max speed of the Dithmarschen support ships.
The British had the advantage of priceless intelligence and knew the exact location of the German Battlegroup through its entire transit of the straights. The problem was they lacked the combat power to do anything about it. The fast battlegroup centered on the aircraft carriers HMS Furious and Victorious was too far away. Squadrons 251 and 269 made one attempt strike the German force but the twin engine bombers where no match for the German fighters.
With the German battlegroup about to breakout into the North Atlantic orders where given for convoys to divert south out of the path of the German advance.
On Friedrich der Große Admiral Lütjens decided to head hard west and south on the assumption that any pursuit would be from the East in the form of the British Home Fleet. Two days out of the Denmark Straights the HX-152 was sited by a U Boat and the convoys location transmitted. At once the German battlegroup moved to intercept. A day later air scouts from Graf Zeppelin overflew the convoy, it was made up of at least two 50 ships with a heavy escort. Including two battleships, the Germans identified the battleships as belonging to the United States Navy; USS Texas and USS Arkansas.
At once Admiral Lütjens was placed in a quandary. While there had been reports of clashes between U-Boats and American destroyers no surface battles had occurred and American warships had been sold to the British. No reports of anything larger than destroyers had reached the Germans but it didn’t mean such a sale hadn’t occurred. While closing on the large convoy Admiral Lütjens radioed Berlin for directions on how to proceed.
Meanwhile Admiral Ernst King was flying his flag on USS Texas as CnC Atlantic Fleet. When word of the breakout of the German squadron King had been diverted to the nearest convoy. USS Texas and USS Arkansas had been on neutrality patrol at the start of Elbeübung (Operation Elbe). Admiral King unlike Admiral Lütjens faced no quandary; ships under American escort were to be protected.
On the morning of October 5th, the capital ships of Battlegroup Lütjens closed on HX-152 and Admiral King received a report of unknown warships closing from the North. Very quickly the Americans and Germans confirmed the identity of each other. King had USS Texas and USS Arkansas along with numerous smaller escorts while Lütjens had Bismarck, Friedrich der Große, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and four destroyers. Otto Ciliax was flying his flag on Graf Zeppelin escorted by Lützow / Deutschland, Admiral Hipper and four Destroyers 25 miles behind Lütjens. A brief exchange of challenges between the American and Germans followed. Where the Americans warned the Germans off and the Germans ordered the Americans to allow the ships to be inspected for contraband. Neither side backed down but both were reluctant to fire the first shot.
King had a critical bit of information that Lütjens lacked the location of the Fast Elements of the British Home Fleet. The British carrier battlegroup centered on HMS Victorious and HMS Furious. The British had been steaming towards the convoy since yesterday and ran a risk by having a strike prepared and ready for rapid movement to the flight deck. Therefor as soon as the Germans had been spotted the British were notified.
In the mean time the American Admiral stalled and played for time. Attempting to fight the four battleships with only two was very long odds especially as all of the German ships were modern fast designs while Texas and Arkansas were nearly three decades old. In the end Lütjens’ reluctance to fire the first shot bough King the time needed. The four Bf-109s flying combat air patrol over Lütjens battleships spotted a large strike of aircraft coming in; the air wings from Furious and Victorious had at last arrived.
The British attack was made up of a mix of Fairey Albacores, Fairey Swordfishes, Sea Hurricanes and Grumman Martlets. The strike of fifty plus aircraft quickly swept aside the German combat air patrol. The British to avoid any chance of torpedo’s hitting the Americans or the convoy all attacked from the direction of the convoy. The bombs dropped by the Fairey Albacores did little damage. Of the twenty-four torpedo equipped aircraft three where shot down before they could attack but the remainder dropped all of their weapons. The Germans executed wild evasive maneuvers that allowed Friedrich der Große, Tirpitz and Scharnhorst to escape unscathed. Bismarck was hit three times and the might German battleship had extensive flooding along the starboard side.
What happened next is still hotly debated years after the war. Admiral King ordered his command to open fire. Because of what happened to Texas’ flag bridge later in the battle it’s not known exactly why Admiral King gave the order to open fire. Some point to the orders passed down by Admiral Stark, CnC United States Navy, to attack any German ship near or attacking a convoy as more than enough justification. Many suggest that the British attack provided the best chance King would have to achieve a victory. In any event the United States Navy was now in battle with the Kriegsmarine.
German records report that at 11:34 AM the American battleships opened fire. Lütjens was under strict orders to avoid an incident and went so far as to order a return fire hold until he saw the bright flash from one of the American Battleships from a full salvo fire. Because the German ships were doing evasive maneuvers they proved difficult targets and their own return fire was completely ineffective.
Once the British air attack ended Lütjens’ turned his ships wrath on the American ships close at hand. Over the next thirty-three minutes the American and German dreadnoughts slugged it out. Bismarck and Friedrich der Große engaged Texas while Tirpitz and Scharnhorst engaged Arkansas.
Arkansas drew first blood and then Texas. With heavy flooding on Bismarck from the torpedo hits and counter flooding the German squadron was actually slower than the American ships. The American ships each with twelve main guns put up an impressive rate of fire.
At 11:37 Arkansas hit Friedrich der Große in the conning tower but the thick 14” armor held against the 12” shell. While seconds later Texas sent a 14” shell through the super-structure of Bismarck.
A twelve-inch shell impacted the turret face of Bruno and the shock put the turret out of action for several minutes. While Texas land two shells into the belt armor of Bismarck that while they didn’t penetrate added to the German battleships flooding from leaks.
Six minutes into the battle the Germans now had the range. Scharnhorst put two shells into the aft belt of Arkansas and both went deep into the ship.
Both sides were firing as rapidly as possible but, in the end, there were four German battleships to two American. Especially as USS Arkansas shells more often than not would shatter on impact against the German armor. By 20 minutes into the battle both of the American battleships had been hit well over a dozen times with major fires raging on the ships. One such fire on USS Texas reached the five-inch magazines and major explosion rocked the American dreadnought. German records noted the explosion at 12:33 PM.
‘Might T’ as she was known to her crew was dying.
Almost immediately after the magazine explosion a 15” shell struck the flag bridge of Texas. Admiral Ernst King, United States navy and everyone with him was killed. Captain Lewis W. Comstock of Texas took command of the American force.
Comstock lead the defense for perhaps five minutes before Texas suddenly rolled over and sunk as the explosion had caused a great deal of flooding.
With Texas lost the Germans turned all of their attention on the now alone USS Arkansas. Incredibly the American battleship laid down in 1910 fought on by herself for eight more minutes before the order to abandon ship was given.
***
While King and Lütjens fought it out Ciliax had not been idle. Three out of four of his Bf-109s flying CAP over the battleships had been lost the survivor preformed a very valuable service. As the last of the British aircraft withdraw the pilot trailed the British for fifteen minutes providing a vector.
At 11:56 AM Graf Zeppelin turned into the wind.
To be continued…
Well, I'd say the Germans are screwed. With Bismarck slowed, the RN can now deploy even the slowest units and get results.
My bad on RAF Wick, when I looked into the squadron histories of units in Iceland I noted the previous location for the unit. Issues of doing research and then not using it for a month plus! Texas was just dumb, no excuse.
Now the heart of things.
USN v Kriegsmarine.
When I first sketched out this story the result was the Germans and Americans glare at each other but nothing happens between them. King looks on as the RN attacks the Germans. While looking for some line to quote to give a bit of flavor I discovered some interesting. A historian described USN conduct in Atlantic Ocean as being 'search and destroy' in nature. So I dug more into it. Along the way I discovered references to an exchange between Admiral Stark and Roosevelt to the effect that Stark viewed FDR as taking sides and he should be honest with himself about it. It appears Stark had the idea that FDR while being overtly pro British didn't realize the full implications of some of his own actions.
As part of this I discovered that Stark had issued fairly clear orders that German ships were to be sunk on site if they approached a USN escorted convoy.
By late 1941 there were six USN battleships in the Atlantic but New York was in refit. Random chance dictated the ships and as Texas was Atlantic Fleet flagship and so we have Kings presence.
Once I discovered the highly aggressive orders issued by Stark to King I decided that placed a different light on things. I had written myself into a corner. I had but three options.
1) USN and Kriegsmarine ships have to be kept apart to just avoid this type of stuff.
2) Stick with the script, so USN just watches on.
3) Give free reign to King to be aggressive and the torpedo attack provided a possible force equalizer.
I clearly choose option 3 the battle that followed was very, very one sided. N^2 is and always has been a cruel mistress.
Michael
hipper
Banned
well 4s 2 is very one sided though I'm surprised the American destroyers did not make more of a showing,
I'm also surprised the FAA did not target the German carrier as a priority.
cheers Hipper
Especially when one of those two is a WW1 relic with 12" guns.
Perhaps the targeting was the result of aviators simply picking the biggest target.
hipper
Banned
the American destroyers will have 4" guns and 10 torpedo tubes The FAA aviators Know that the only dangerous target is the Carrier and would be briefed to strike it. once its sunk the Rest of the German Fleet are targets.
The British attacked the target they had in front of them. Graf Zeppelin was not located and not attacked.
As to USS destroyers my silence is not to say they tried nothing just that they achieved nothing of note. The type 15 torpedo had same problem as the type 14s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo#Problems
Michael
As to USS destroyers my silence is not to say they tried nothing just that they achieved nothing of note. The type 15 torpedo had same problem as the type 14s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo#Problems
Michael