Development of Zoroastrianism without Muslim conquest

[Historyman 14]

Before the Arab conquest of Iran, it was the state religion of Persia, but under Arab control, it suffer much under Muslim rule. It's shrines were destroyed, libraries were burned, the persecution of Zoroastrians became more common and widespread. Once was the oldest and largest religious community of Persia and in the world became a minority, and small group.

But in this, how would Zoroastrianism turn out if Persia had not fallen to the Muslim Arabs? (How they did it is another matter. This is about Zoroastrianism surviving in a Persia that never fell to the Arabs and never underwent Islamization.)

 

[Isfendil]

Maybe circumstance causes the Byzantines to become destablized, making them a more tantalizing target for the Arabs who then decide to focus on Europe rather than Asia? I can elaborate on a scenario to put forward for this but like you said, we ought to focus on Zoroastrianism first.

At any rate, the Arabs didn't do an inordinate amount of damage to Zoroastrian works, but they did burn many copies of the Avestas. I think that perhaps given a slight respite, the empire could possibly restabilize and prepare for the Muslims who they will most definitely see as a threat (Eran was pretty theologically hegemonic)

 

[Historyman 14]

Maybe circumstance causes the Byzantines to become destablized, making them a more tantalizing target for the Arabs who then decide to focus on Europe rather than Asia? I can elaborate on a scenario to put forward for this but like you said, we ought to focus on Zoroastrianism first.

At any rate, the Arabs didn't do an inordinate amount of damage to Zoroastrian works, but they did burn many copies of the Avestas. I think that perhaps given a slight respite, the empire could possibly restabilize and prepare for the Muslims who they will most definitely see as a threat (Eran was pretty theologically hegemonic)

I would not mind seeing more of your scenario, maybe PM me it.

It would be cool to see that. Maybe if the Empire does well against the Arabs, they could try and enforce Zoroastrianism on the local population?

 

[Isfendil]

They already enforce it on the local population, war with the Byzantines made them anti-christian. The Sassanians are not the kind Achaemenids we all idolize and hope to emulate. (I say this as a Persian)

 

[Historyman 14]

They already enforce it on the local population, war with the Byzantines made them anti-christian. The Sassanians are not the kind Achaemenids we all idolize and hope to emulate. (I say this as a Persian)

Ah i see. I will say i'm not the most knowledge about this area. This thread itself came off the top of my head, but i do have a love for Zoroastrianism and Pre-Islamic Persia/Iran, so i thought i post this, and see what everyone else thought on the subject was.

 

[Thesaurus Rex]

Would their eternal flames be a problem as the Zoroastrian population increased to industrial levels? I imagine it would take up a lot of resources (sandalwood, natural gas) if you built a bunch of them and kept them continuously fed.

 

[PhilippeO]

wouldn't they have no choice to reform ?

mazdak-ism is fairly successful before Arab came. Christianity spread fast in the Western part and Manichaeism in Northern part.

if they want to succeed, persecution is not enough, they need massive reform to address religious need of common people. a Zoroastrian counter-reformation ?

competition with Islam, Jewish, Christianity, Buddhism and Manichaeism would make 'new Zoroastrian' need to re-develop their theology, philoshopy and missionary effort.

 

[Balaur]

Would Hapsburg level inbreeding be a problem amongst the elites?

 

[Arkenfolm]

Would their eternal flames be a problem as the Zoroastrian population increased to industrial levels? I imagine it would take up a lot of resources (sandalwood, natural gas) if you built a bunch of them and kept them continuously fed.

That's actually an interesting point, since where will they get all this sandalwood from? Certainly they'll need intensive links with India and the Indies, and it will also make the price of sandalwood higher globally meaning that whoever is controlling this resource is going to be profitting hugely off of it. As a side note, I wonder will happen once Western Australia's sandalwood becomes known to the world?

 

[Muwatalli']

wouldn't they have no choice to reform ?

mazdak-ism is fairly successful before Arab came. Christianity spread fast in the Western part and Manichaeism in Northern part.

if they want to succeed, persecution is not enough, they need massive reform to address religious need of common people. a Zoroastrian counter-reformation ?

competition with Islam, Jewish, Christianity, Buddhism and Manichaeism would make 'new Zoroastrian' need to re-develop their theology, philoshopy and missionary effort.

Christianity was only popular among minorities in Mesopotamia (which were a majority in Mesopotamia itself), but the Persian-speaking majority and elite of the Empire always remained Zoroastrian, and conversion to Christianity (and other religions) was apparently not very popular. Even after the Islamic conquest, it took several centuries before a majority of the population in Iran had converted to Islam. Zoroastrian theology was stable enough, and Zoroastrianism, unlike for example the ancient Roman religion, does have a kind of 'liberation' theology which allows it to compete with other religions.

I believe that a surviving Sassanid Empire would remain Zoroastrian.

 

[Monter]

Zoroastrianism itself was pretty shattered since the Macedonian Conquest, since there wasn't a single established theology on the subject, in fact the greatest source of knowledge of the Archaemenids the Sassanians had came from the Old Testament (hence why the jews weren't persecuted in Persia), so you had the orthodox interpretation that was supported by the Sassanian Kings and the upper nobility and various strains under the common folk (Zurvanism was the most popular).

 

[Practical Lobster]

Would Hapsburg level inbreeding be a problem amongst the elites?

No. Why would it? Xwedodah certainly existed, but it wasn't as if it was a universally practiced custom or a custom which prevented the Sassanians from having healthy children as products of non-incestuous unions.

Zoroastrianism itself was pretty shattered since the Macedonian Conquest, since there wasn't a single established theology on the subject, in fact the greatest source of knowledge of the Archaemenids the Sassanians had came from the Old Testament (hence why the jews weren't persecuted in Persia), so you had the orthodox interpretation that was supported by the Sassanian Kings and the upper nobility and various strains under the common folk (Zurvanism was the most popular).

Sassanian Zoroastrianism and late Achaemenid Zoroastrianism are pretty different beasts, from my understanding. That said, I'd very much like see a source for the Sassanians using the Old Testament for a source on the Achaemenids and that being the reason Judiasm wasn't persecuted. The Sassanians had their own (admittedly poor) historiography which shouldn't be discounted.

 

[Monter]

That said, I'd very much like see a source for the Sassanians using the Old Testament for a source on the Achaemenids and that being the reason Judiasm wasn't persecuted. The Sassanians had their own (admittedly poor) historiography which shouldn't be discounted.

It was Sassanian Persia: Rise and Fall of an Empire by Touraj Daryaee.

 

[Isfendil]

I don't know much but I do know that Persians have always been fond of their Jewish community, even now (yes, despite certain developments).

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Would their eternal flames be a problem as the Zoroastrian population increased to industrial levels? I imagine it would take up a lot of resources (sandalwood, natural gas) if you built a bunch of them and kept them continuously fed.

They would probably just replace eternal flames with electric lights in the modern era, as has been done with the Jewish and Christian sanctuary lamp or altar lamp.

 

[Thesaurus Rex]

They would probably just replace eternal flames with electric lights in the modern era, as has been done with the Jewish and Christian sanctuary lamp or altar lamp.

I suppose. In the meantime though before electricity is used I imagine there'd be some environmental problems from the high demand of fire fuel.

 

[Isfendil]

Or perhaps the eternal flame could be relegated to rich cities only. You could even have a bit of a cathedral culture rise up- pilgrimage money is nice.

 

[Thesaurus Rex]

Or perhaps the eternal flame could be relegated to rich cities only. You could even have a bit of a cathedral culture rise up- pilgrimage money is nice.

Yeah, like have a few primary fire temples with eternal fires, and then for special events, holidays, ceremonies etc. use fire from them to light fires in satellite temples.

 

[Towelie]

I don't know much but I do know that Persians have always been fond of their Jewish community, even now (yes, despite certain developments).

I think officially that is what is supposed to be the case. It probably to some degree rests on the vociferous (professed) anti-Zionism of the Jewish minority still in Iran.

I went to college with a Jewish guy whose family was originally from Iran. There are a lot of them in Southern California, apparently, and he said that in reality, things were not good at all and his family was lucky to have gotten out.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Maybe circumstance causes the Byzantines to become destablized, making them a more tantalizing target for the Arabs who then decide to focus on Europe rather than Asia? I can elaborate on a scenario to put forward for this

What scenario were you thinking of?