DBWI: United China, Divided Europe

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Essentially, flipping Eurasia on its head. Instead of the Empire of the Four Saint Crowns, we have a number of nation-states and principalities dividing Europe between them, at least west of the Russian Empire. Similarly, instead of a collection mutually-jealous states, we have a united China, as existed prior the Ming Collapse.

It shouldn't be impossible, as Europe was divided before the War of the Habsburg Ascendancy which saw the Holy Roman Empire achieve effective continental hegemony at France's expense, and the rise of the Empire of the Four Saint Crowns over the next fifty years. Similarly, and as previously-mentioned, China had been united for two thousand years (with brief periods of dissolution between dynasties) prior to the Ming Collapse.

How would this world look like? Could the French and the Bourbons ever succeed to the same degree as the Germans and the Habsburgs? Would the British and/or the Russians be more successful against them if they were? Could the Russians finally achieve their dream of retaking the Constantinople, or as they prefer to call it, Tsargrad?

What of China? As the traditional hegemon for those same two thousand years, could they succeed to the same extent as Japan's Pan-Pacific Empire? And what would their relations with Russia be like? Japan was traditionally a naval power, while China was a land power. The former was content with peaceful coexistence and profitable trade through Vladivostok and Petropavlovsk, but would China be? Or would they instead sweep north and take the Tsar's eastern domains?

 

[Dolan]

Europe is not really United though, the British Empire still control their namesake islands, but yeah... the bulk of their population, economy, and industry lies in North America (which effectively made the British Islands basically a giant military garrison against the Habsburgs' United Europe).

Without united Europe though, the Brits won't have the incentive to go and focus on colonizing North America

...

And thus, united China might ends up forcing/giving incentive to Japan to actually consolidate their overseas colonies in one place, instead of taking the far-apart parts of Shimajima*1), Yemen, Bonishima*2), parts of Banua Kidul*3), Malagasy, and their Pacific Islands.

Maybe the Japanese would ended up focusing more on colonizing Shimajima OR the Banua Kidul in case of China staying united.



OOC:
1) Atl name for Philippines
2) Atl name for Borneo
3) Atl Javanese name for Australia, they has the other half

 

[M79]

Well Greater Helvetia maintains at least nominally 'free' status but is an economic satellite of Bruges. I still find it mind-boggling the Habsburgs laid claim to the Ottoman throne by getting their heir married to an Ottoman princess and still managed to get it legally recognized BY THE OTTOMANS.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Well Greater Helvetia maintains at least nominally 'free' status but is an economic satellite of Bruges. I still find it mind-boggling the Habsburgs laid claim to the Ottoman throne by getting their heir married to an Ottoman princess and still managed to get it legally recognized BY THE OTTOMANS.

To be fair, it didn't quite work out. The Muslim world didn't particularly take kindly to a Christian Sultan, which is why the Empire lost most of their Middle Eastern domains in just over two decades. Mind you, they managed to keep Anatolia, but...yeah...the Habsburg record in Anatolia is not good. Not to mention it's left Petrograd fuming for centuries: as far as they're concerned, the heirs of the people who sacked the Second Rome centuries ago have no right to Constantinople.

 

[Dolan]

To be fair, it didn't quite work out. The Muslim world didn't particularly take kindly to a Christian Sultan, which is why the Empire lost most of their Middle Eastern domains in just over two decades.

They still got what actually mattered; Constantinople, Balkans, and Western Coasts of Anatolia. The Greeks and The Slavs do think them as Liberators at first... only to be severely disappointed later with how the Habsburgs heavily favor Catholicism, but eh... might be the Tsar's ploy to regain their influence there all along.

But yeah, the late Sultan Yahya is now called "Yahya the Murtadin" (Apostate) in Muslim world for basically letting his only (legitimate) daughter to marry the Habsburg crown Prince and ordered the Sultanate to be inherited to his daughter's Christian son instead of his muslim nephews. It was so blatant alienation of Muslims so they theorized that Yahya, who has a Greek Christian mother, might have been a Christian all along.

 

[West]

With out a unified Europe you don't get a unified north America and the absolutely brutal religious wars.

The british freaked out hard when they realized they were the last prodastint country left. It was under queen Elisabeth that north America was opened up to any prodastint seeking sanctuary from the inquisition. You essentially had from 1558-1890 an almost unlimited stream of prodastint refugees into british north America which was built up as Englands fall back position until the monarchy and government moved to Chicago in 1840 after the Berlin crisis.

The positon of England since then was that north America was the last safe place for prodastints in the world and that it must be secured by any means nessary hence the very ugly religious wars that saw the fall of Quebec and later mexico and the papist expulsions that often followed. With the Hapsburgs forcus split between the Americas, north Africa, eastern Europe and Antolia they were often force to neglect their American colonies.

That ended up costing them north America and the Carabean with south America only remaining in their hands because of General Zapistas jungle offensive. Even over a hundred years later the boarder between the province of panama and Columbia is one of the most fortified boarders in the world.

Instead of the current three polar system with Russia, Europe and the Empire you probally end up with a even more multipolar world.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Assuming the Suez and Panama Canals still get built, they'd be less militarized, more open, and have lesser tolls. IIRC, one of Japan's longstanding gripes with both the British and the Habsburgs are the near-exorbitant tolls they levy on ships passing through their respective canals. And it's not just Japan, either. IIRC, hardly a decade passes without at least one official protest from the Marquis of Guangdong to the British Consul-General in Hong Kong, or the Imperial Governor-General at Macau, on behalf of the merchant princes that dominate Guangdong's society.

 

[West]

Assuming the Suez and Panama Canals still get built, they'd be less militarized, more open, and have lesser tolls. IIRC, one of Japan's longstanding gripes with both the British and the Habsburgs are the near-exorbitant tolls they levy on ships passing through their respective canals. And it's not just Japan, either. IIRC, hardly a decade passes without at least one official protest from the Marquis of Guangdong to the British Consul-General in Hong Kong, or the Imperial Governor-General at Macau, on behalf of the merchant princes that dominate Guangdong's society.

Ok whats happening is that Japan and Guangdong is trying to be neutral.

And there is an advantage to that you can trade with every one but both the british and Habsburg empires have policies created to force people to pick a side.

The tolls that charges are on a sliding scale from A to Z, countries of orgin, religion of the crews captain and other factors go into how much you get charges at one of the canal zones. An A means your a british citazin who worships at one of the P.A.N registered sects or churchs. Thats the cheapest the most expensive is Z a catholic ship that flies under Hbsburg empire.

The japanese are some where in the middle if they want to cut the tolls just get a captain who has a certificate of baptism or conversion at a P.A.N registered church um there are more then 500 of them so you know lots of options flash that and the ship will normally be upgraded and given a lower toll. The Hapsburg have a similar system in place only its catholic and approved orthadox churches only that qualify for toll reduction.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

That ended up costing them north America and the Carabean with south America only remaining in their hands because of General Zapistas jungle offensive. Even over a hundred years later the boarder between the province of panama and Columbia is one of the most fortified boarders in the world.

And the Habsburgs now only hold the Northern part of Columbia, because of they lost Brazilia to Moroccan invasion (using Muslim Africans as plantation slaves were bad idea, they ended up helping the Morrocans and hailed them as Liberators), while the Southernmost part Revolted and formed the Republic of Incargentina soon after the loss of Brazil happened. Of course, with Morroco themselves has fallen into civil war in the early 20th century, the Al-Barazil Caliphate's position is greatly weakened, but they still held themselves against Habsburg and Incargentina incursions, mainly because Russo-Japanese bloc helping them, but they do understood that if they fall, the only foothold of Islam in the Western hemisphere would be extinguished.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

TBH, continued slavery in their colonies is something that never made sense to me, as slavery was abolished in Europe for over a century ago. Hell, even Russia abolished serfdom (no real difference in practice, at least to me) about twenty years ago or so. Japan and China's coastal marches also abolished slavery about forty (going fifty) years ago. Why the British and the Habsburgs continue that abominable practice in their colonies is beyond me. They're the only Great Powers that do.

 

[West]

TBH, continued slavery in their colonies is something that never made sense to me, as slavery was abolished in Europe for over a century ago. Hell, even Russia abolished serfdom (no real difference in practice, at least to me) about twenty years ago or so. Japan and China's coastal marches also abolished slavery about forty (going fifty) years ago. Why the British and the Habsburgs continue that abominable practice in their colonies is beyond me. They're the only Great Powers that do.

Slavery is actually illegal in north america, Ireland and Great britian.

In north america it was because of the white lion case of 1619. The only places where it is still legal is Cuba, Dominica, and Purto rico and the only reason we allow that is because they were allowed to keep their slaves in the treaty of havana in exchange for conversion. Every time we try to get them to stop and join the rest of civilized imperial society they throw a royal bitch fest.

 

[Dolan]

TBH, continued slavery in their colonies is something that never made sense to me, as slavery was abolished in Europe for over a century ago. Hell, even Russia abolished serfdom (no real difference in practice, at least to me) about twenty years ago or so. Japan and China's coastal marches also abolished slavery about forty (going fifty) years ago. Why the British and the Habsburgs continue that abominable practice in their colonies is beyond me. They're the only Great Powers that do.

Britain only *technically* still have Slavery being legal as there are virtually no slaves in North America and British Isles proper.

There are still domestic slaves on the Caribbeans, however, but those are generally women employed as maidservants, and boys (often sons of those slave maids) being employed as domestic and plantation helpers. They are much better treated than what happened in Habsburg-held Columbia, even if their masters and those Mullato Males throw collective hissy fit Everytime they were asked to just free those poor women.

Adult Male "slaves" in the Caribbean are generally given manumission and receive salary, but they often stayed with their masters due to loyalty issues (and the fact they often sold their own daughters, continuing the vicious circle).

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Okay, that explains the British. And the Habsburgs? Remember the Yukishiro Scandal only a few years ago? A young Japanese artist travelling the world had his ship making a stop at the Congo and bloody hell, it was like something out of the Old Testament.

And it's not like Vienna is unaware, otherwise they wouldn't have made such an effort to keep Yukishiro from getting back home. The man practically had to be smuggled back to the Far East, and contributing to the current spat between Kyoto and Vienna.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

TBH, continued slavery in their colonies is something that never made sense to me, as slavery was abolished in Europe for over a century ago. Hell, even Russia abolished serfdom (no real difference in practice, at least to me) about twenty years ago or so. Japan and China's coastal marches also abolished slavery about forty (going fifty) years ago. Why the British and the Habsburgs continue that abominable practice in their colonies is beyond me. They're the only Great Powers that do.

Columbia is pretty much de facto independent Dominion nowadays, swearing fealty to Habsburg Emperor and paid one percent of their collective income as Imperial Tax, but they were otherwise treated as equal. More as equal, even, compared to the European Provinces...

The Zapistas, being Hereditary Kings of Columbia, is pretty much a peer to the Habsburgs and generally intermarried with them, like the current Empress Dolores Zapista, wife to Emperor Joseph V Habsburg. They are much closer to Criminal Overlord in their governing style...

 

[Dolan]

And it's not like Vienna is unaware, otherwise they wouldn't have made such an effort to keep Yukishiro from getting back home. The man practically had to be smuggled back to the Far East, and contributing to the current spat between Kyoto and Vienna.

The report about Slave-Made Secret Pyramid Complex in Congo is greatly blown out of proportion... There are no Secret Pyramids being built there, and the Habsburgs certainly deem the tale of Immortality as just a fancy myth from Egypt.

 

[West]

Columbia is pretty much de facto independent Dominion nowadays, swearing fealty to Habsburg Emperor and paid one percent of their collective income as Imperial Tax, but they were otherwise treated as equal. More as equal, even, compared to the European Provinces...

The Zapistas, being Hereditary Kings of Columbia, is pretty much a peer to the Habsburgs and generally intermarried with them, like the current Empress Dolores Zapista, wife to Emperor Joseph V Habsburg. They are much closer to Criminal Overlord in their governing style...

I give the Columbians this they are hard to kill, as is the royal family and lord knows we have tried to conquer that place what how many times?

They always seem to stop us at the The Cordillera Oriental mountain range, its been 80 years since the last war and thats still the border between us and the Hapsburgs and even then the Zapistas nicked Guyanna as compensation and there is no way in hell we are getting that back.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

The report about Slave-Made Secret Pyramid Complex in Congo is greatly blown out of proportion... There are no Secret Pyramids being built there, and the Habsburgs certainly deem the tale of Immortality as just a fancy myth from Egypt.

I am aware, but the Habsburgs still worked the natives to the bone to build the Congo's infrastructure, and still do man the rubber plantations. There's also the quotensystem where if quotas aren't met, family members (usually the wife or eldest son) of random slaves have their hands chopped off. Or where acts of serious disobedience are punished by decimation, with the dead left hanging until they're nothing but bones.

 

[BavarianPhysicist]

A larger and a more Agricultural and sedentary oriented expansion of the Indo-Iranians, could lead to a Multi-Ethnic China, as a whole. With that kind of distance and Geography, you could have several sub-groups of the Indo-Iranians develop in China. Aside these, a couple of ethnicities could be created due to interactions(like the Hazaras, for example).

Now with the vacuum of Indo-Iranians in Europe, we could have a Uralic dominated Empire in Russia and Ukraine and this seals off the Eastern borders of Europe, hence preventing any Steppe invasions. In that case, Germanic, Balto-Slavic and Italic Roman states could evolve more or less united.

 

[BavarianPhysicist]

Adding to the above, if the Indo-Iranians migrate entirely to China, you don't have Persia, Bactria, Medea, Mitanni, Scythians/Sarmatians and even a strong Indian Empire. This could lead to heavy effects on the European kingdoms towards the South. Say, the Greeks, Anatolians and the Dacians. The scenario would be unrecognizable. But I think it should be easy to reach the OPs premise.

 

[BavarianPhysicist]

However, don't think divided China is a given. Europe had a varying Geography which made it diverse and divided. Even if a large Indo-Iranian confederation migrates into China, they could end up uniting China than dividing it. Since you have a large Agricultural Sedentary migration from the North, the Mongols and the Turks may not be a threat, which may lead to a richer and a united China, even as a multi-ethnic Empire.