DBWI: France Loses The Franco-Prussian War?

OTL, despite some early successes, the Prussian military was ultimately repulsed by the Second French Empire and Bismarck's web of central european friends and clients dissolved as France marched for Berlin once more in the 19th century, as the French had modernized much more successfully than anticipated. However, Napoleon III was not stupid. He was well aware that if he took too much, he would risk the same coalitions that had ruined his uncle. He took some land in and around the Rhine to accelerate French industrial growth, some war reparations, and the recent conquests . This victory abroad truly secured the Empire, and Prussian hegemony over the german states began a slow death as revolts popped up throughout it's realm.

This isn't to say Prussia wasn't destroyed or even no longer a great power, but as the Berlin Petition was shot down (literally, with the students who made it happen being seriously wounded, though none killed), the Polish Uprising crushed, and Bismarck blamed the southern states for not helping their german brothers or something, the German states started drifting away from Berlin's orbit.

But what if Prussia won the war? would the Empire fall into a third republic? What would Britain do with this shifting Balance of Powers? What would Prussia take?
 
As with OTL, France became the hegemon of Central Europe, dominating their Northern German vassals, with their AH allies dominating the south. Prussia, while still formidable, fell into civil chaos, rising from the ashes as the communist Prussia we all know and love, later forming the Triple Alliance alongside Britain and Russia against France, AH, and Italy in 1914.

A Prussian victory could mean anything, but a peaceful union into some united German nation, I highly doubt it. Most of the German states, particularly Bavaria, would never surrender their autonomy to Prussian dominance. Likewise, Berlin would never accept an HRE-esque set up. German unification would no doubt come into being through war.

The state of France would matter a ton here. How badly were they defeated? Napoleon III, at the time, was very unpopular. A French defeat sprinkled with an army is disarray could easily see the monarchy overthrown, and a communist coup taking control. If Prussia gives France time to recover, then I could see the French and Austrians joining the southern German states against Prussia and Britain.
 
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This victory abroad truly secured the Empire

I don't believe Napoléon III's régime was ever in doubt. In fact he won the 1870 referendum in a landslide before the war. The victory was simply the cherry on the cake.

It did however make permanent the idea that the Emperor should play an active role in the military (although Napoléon III was much less involved in the battle plan against Prussia than the propaganda claimed). Ultimately this led to Napoléon V's controversial intervention in Mozambique.

I don't think we can assume a French defeat would be the mirror image of the actual Prussian defeat. It would be a blow to the reputation of the Emperor, certainly. But the régime was already evolving to become more constitutional and it was known that he was going to abdicate upon the Prince Imperial's 18th birthday. Plus his reconstruction of Paris made it more difficult for groups to barricade the streets.
 
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Well you just made World War I a lot more interesting. Without Operation SeaLion landing so many troops at Normandy that June day in 1914 I'm not sure how naval history evolves. Granted, the Second French Empire might have stabilized or been checked at Fashoda instead of lining up a ring of client states and puppets under Napoleon IV and his brilliant third son, Jean-Claude. Heck, the latter's victories seemingly against any odds remain a key focus of first-year studies at military academies worldwide - the Battle of Segovia alone, which may be 5th or 6th on his list of greatest victories, saw him crush the combined Spanish, Portuguese, and British armies piecemeal despite being outnumbered 2:1. He was only 21 at the time!
 
As with OTL, France became the hegemon of Central Europe, dominating their Northern German vassals, with their AH allies dominating the south. Prussia, while still formidable, fell into civil chaos, rising from the ashes as the communist Prussia we all know and love, later forming the Triple Alliance alongside Britain and Russia against France, AH, and Italy in 1914.

A Prussian victory could mean anything, but a peaceful union into some united German nation, I highly doubt it. Most of the German states, particularly Bavaria, would never surrender their autonomy to Prussian dominance. Likewise, Berlin would never accept an HRE-esque set up. German unification would no doubt come into being through war.

The state of France would matter a ton here. How badly were they defeated? Napoleon III, at the time, was very unpopular. A French defeat sprinkled with an army is disarray could easily see the monarchy overthrown, and a communist coup taking control. If Prussia gives France time to recover, then I could see the French and Austrians joining the southern German states against Prussia and Britain.

Well supposedly Napoleon III was going to visit the troops near the border one day, but was held up by a bad stomach flu, and a Coloniel once told Napoleon V that when he was a soldier, his superior had drawn up plans to replace his grandfather as necessary. Dunno how true it was, but Napoleon V certainly found it unamusing
I don't believe Napoléon III's régime was ever in doubt. In fact he won the 1870 referendum in a landslide before the war. The victory was simply the cherry on the cake.

It did however make permanent the idea that the Emperor should play an active role in the military (although Napoléon III was much less involved in the battle plan against Prussia than the propaganda claimed). Ultimately this led to Napoléon V's controversial intervention in Mozambique.

I don't think we can assume a French defeat would be the mirror image of the actual Prussian defeat. It would be a blow to the reputation of the Emperor, certainly. But the régime was already evolving to become more constitutional and it was known that he was going to abdicate upon the Prince Imperial's 18th birthday. Plus his reconstruction of Paris made it more difficult for groups to barricade the streets.
Now that you mention it, African colonization would be far different.
Spain took Europe's diplomatic shock to start carving their way back to some degree of prominence, subsuming Morocco, conquering Libya and parts of Arabia from the ottomans, even claiming parts of the Kongo and korea. It didn't save them from the spanish civil war in the 30s, or their defeat in WW1, but it did prevent a total Spain screw.
France, like you said, annexed Mozambique after Portugal lost control of it due to a socialist-democratic revolution. Plus the stuff in Algiers. They also yoinked the lion's share (rooster share?) Of the Kongo. it was home to some of the worst colonial exploitation of anyone for a long time, but after Napoleon V's Star Map to properly connect it to Mozambique, it shed that and began to become a vital industrial base with strong social equality, as the French Empire adopted a more civic nationalism than the other empires.
Honestly I feel bad for Britain- the Cape, Eypt and even Nigeria weren't bad, but with the French having one contiguous realm, they were shunted from the best of Africa.

King Leopold II of Belgium once mentioned that Belgium was too threatened by the chaos in Central Europe and the ascendant France to pursue the project, but he wanted a chunk of the kongo. While I doubt it could happen (look at belgium, please), he was a charitable man on continent, and Belgium was indeed a civic nationality, so I imagine he'd be better than pre-Star Map France.

But if Prussia wins the war, they're suddenly in a position to change Everything -did they really want that many colonies though?
 
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Well supposedly Napoleon III was going to visit the troops near the border one day, but was held up by a bad stomach flu, and a Coloniel once told Napoleon V that when he was a soldier, his superior had drawn up plans to replace his grandfather as necessary. Dunno how true it was, but Napoleon V certainly found it unamusing

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But if Prussia wins the war, they're suddenly in a position to change Everything -did they really want that many colonies though?

There is a reason Jean-Claude was known as le marteau du trône. But at 6'3" in bare feet and 105 kg in those days the Colonel in question needed only one good slug to the temple to come crashing down. The story about the plan to remove his father was that given at the time and no one dared question the Third Prince. He was jovial with a lightning-quick wit at the best if times but a temper like few others. I blame his mother Louise of Sweden.

If Prussia
 
But if Prussia wins the war, they're suddenly in a position to change Everything -did they really want that many colonies though?
More than likely. Being the dominant power of Europe, the Prussians aren't going to miss out on the buffet of Africa and Asia. I can see them carving up chunks of China and Korea to compete with the British in India. They'd need a damn good fleet, too. Question is, how does this affect their relations with the British? Would London tolerate this new up and commer threatening Britain's spheres of influence? Could we, dare I say, see an Anglo-French Union of sorts to combat this new power?
 
More than likely. Being the dominant power of Europe, the Prussians aren't going to miss out on the buffet of Africa and Asia. I can see them carving up chunks of China and Korea to compete with the British in India. They'd need a damn good fleet, too. Question is, how does this affect their relations with the British? Would London tolerate this new up and commer threatening Britain's spheres of influence? Could we, dare I say, see an Anglo-French Union of sorts to combat this new power?
I mean before the FP War, Napoleon III and Britain were on very good terms, though they fell out after Britain felt the heat of France being dominant in europe. Hell, Napoleon III, still not being the foreign policy juggernaut he should've been, barely moved to rectify this or get strong allies for ages. But if Prussia is an existential threat, they could certainly remain an alliance. Perhaps Russia as a third musketeer?
 
I mean before the FP War, Napoleon III and Britain were on very good terms, though they fell out after Britain felt the heat of France being dominant in europe. Hell, Napoleon III, still not being the foreign policy juggernaut he should've been, barely moved to rectify this or get strong allies for ages. But if Prussia is an existential threat, they could certainly remain an alliance. Perhaps Russia as a third musketeer?
Prussia and Russia were on good footing before and after the FPW OTL. I don't see why that would change. Prussia doesn't have much interest eastwards, and they both rely on each other to keep Polish separatism at a low. I don't see Britain and Russia ever really allying with one another. Maybe Russia and France, but an Anglo-French alliance/union might counter that out. I'm leaning more towards AH.
 
I wonder what would become of American imperial ambitions. OTL, the spanish empire felt that a war for their colonies with america was coming, and using the resources from their new africa holdings they fortified the caribbean and philippines well and good. Of course it became a moot point after Napoleon IV mediated the Maine Incident and America backed off, turning toward Asia full force, taking Japan and Formosa, with Hokkaido being the furthest flung US state and having an ainu plurality that makes it very unique in the us, but if France doesn't feel Spain as a secondary ally has use, (which, by 1912 it certainly didn't and 1914 saw them as enemies, so not unlikely)..
 
But what if Prussia won the war? would the Empire fall into a third republic?
I feel like a France would still remain a monarchy. The Legitimists and Orleanists had an opportunity to unite around unified platform since the titular King Henri V de Bourbon Comte de Chambourd was childless. This made Philippe d'Orleans the Comte de Paris as his heir which likely would have seen a monarchy evolving in France kinda like in Britain as an executive Constitutional Monarchy. The army was quite aristocratic and were generally supportive of the Emperor though, but if the Empire were discredited with such a massive loss like that, I can see the Kingdom of French being looked at with Nostalgia by some. The general populace of France is VERY Catholic and monarchist especially in the Vendee where many old Monarchists hail from. They would likely elect a coalition government of monarchists in the Chamber of Deputies.

Dunno how true it was, but Napoleon V certainly found it unamusing
Unamusing is an understatement. Napoleon V had the man executed by firing squad. There was a massive outcry against the rumors of a supposed coup against the Bonapartes. After Napoleon IV was coronated, he was nearly killed by a group of totalists and Radical Republicans. The army was outraged and began a massive manhunt in the streets for the perpetrators. The ones who fled were lynched by the Parisian mob.

I don't think we can assume a French defeat would be the mirror image of the actual Prussian defeat. It would be a blow to the reputation of the Emperor, certainly. But the régime was already evolving to become more constitutional and it was known that he was going to abdicate upon the Prince Imperial's 18th birthday. Plus his reconstruction of Paris made it more difficult for groups to barricade the streets.
While the Empire is Constitutional, it certainly isn't a ceremonial monarchy either. The Emperor theoretically wields near absolute power if he can muster enough popular support behind him, and with the nature of the Bonapartist state, that isn't very hard to come by, as most of their rulers were quite competent. Even if they were incompetent like Napoleon VI, they were still advised by the competent ministers in the Council of State. A comparison for the Legislature would likely be the Estates General of the 14th and 15th centuries which functions as a sort of rubber stamp to give the feeling of popular support behind a Bill. This largely became the trend after many "anti-French" political parties were banned like the Totalists and the Republicans for example after Napoleon IV's assassination attempt. Though I can see a defeat at the hands of Prussia forcing the democratization of France to a Semi-Constitutional Monarchy. After all Prussia was humiliated by France yet it's monarchy and institutions remained intact, so its very likely that France stays as a monarchy and continues liberalizing as set by Napoleon III which was undone in otl during the reign of the Napoleon IV and the Napoleon V "The Imperious" in response to the rising wave of totalism against the monarchy that overtook Germany in the 20th century.

I feel like this would butterfly away Carlist Spain whose forces won the Third Carlist War after Prince Jean-Claude crushed the Spanish Republicans. The genesis of the Franco-Spanish Alliance was created as part of the French strategy to build its own coalition against Britain and the later German Empire. Spain's industrialization in the 20th century was basically bankrolled by France building up as a junior partner to the Second Empire much like how Russia did with Prussia in otl. I wonder what a Republican Spain would look like, as it didn't really have much native support as its anti-clerical and centralizing policies alienated the general public.

I wonder what would become of American imperial ambitions. OTL, the spanish empire felt that a war for their colonies with america was coming, and using the resources from their new africa holdings they fortified the caribbean and philippines well and good. Of course it became a moot point after Napoleon IV mediated the Maine Incident and America backed off, turning toward Asia full force, taking Japan and Formosa, with Hokkaido being the furthest flung US state and having an ainu plurality that makes it very unique in the us
I mean Japan proved to be a thorn in the American side, and this had the unintended consequences of awakening the sleeping giant that was China. The shock of the fall of Japan shocked the Imperial Court into rapidly modernizing and industrializing China. China with its vast population and untapped economic potential was a force to be reckoned with during WWI much to the woe of the British and the Russians.

How do you guys see China developing without these events? Would they still industrialize like otl? Is a Communist China a possibility?
 
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