DBWI: America Survives

I once read this crazy alternate history book about the "United States" buying Alaska and taking the Phillipines from Spain. And taking over Hawii!! It gets to the point with America building the first atomic bomb and nuking Japan in a war. And later being in a Cold War with Russia!

One must think what would happened had British Soliders not liberated Russia though the Middle East. There is a reason why Great Britian was and still is the only super power.

Ah yes, Jonathan Sobel's "For Want of a Nail" from 1976. Smashing piece of work, if you ask me. Plenty plausible, too. ;)

Though about the slavery issue....to be honest, it very well could have gone the other way and lasted far longer than it did in our world.

Remember, there was a LOT of planter influence that still existed in the 1830s in the south of the BNA, and slavery was actually beginning to take off in places. Had it not been for Queen Charlotte, and Victoria who followed her, slavery probably wouldn't have ended in 1848. It might have been 1898, or even later. We were *lucky* to have them on the throne and not Ernest Augustus.....
 
We abolished slavery and created law and moderate government under God and the Queen for all male landowners over the age of twenty-five. Was that the best the universe could provide?
True, things aren't as good as they can be--trust me, I'm a radical feminist!--but on the other hand, if India had become independent (which I still say would have happened; the Raj dominions only became dominions by the skin of their teeth--in a world where they would have been the majority and considering how racist people were back then, it wouldn't have happened) how would we have dismantled the caste system? (OOC: I know what you said; sorry.) Not to mention, an independent India would have had at least one civil war.

Ah yes, Jonathan Sobel's "For Want of a Nail" from 1976. Smashing piece of work, if you ask me. Plenty plausible, too. ;)

Though about the slavery issue....to be honest, it very well could have gone the other way and lasted far longer than it did in our world.

Remember, there was a LOT of planter influence that still existed in the 1830s in the south of the BNA, and slavery was actually beginning to take off in places. Had it not been for Queen Charlotte, and Victoria who followed her, slavery probably wouldn't have ended in 1848. It might have been 1898, or even later. We were *lucky* to have them on the throne and not Ernest Augustus.....
Oh, indeed! Those twats in the South wanted to have a second revolution over it! Luckily the North wasn't having any of it. In an independent USA, the issue may well have remained deadlocked for, God, I don't even know how long!
 
True, things aren't as good as they can be--trust me, I'm a radical feminist!--but on the other hand, if India had become independent (which I still say would have happened; the Raj dominions only became dominions by the skin of their teeth--in a world where they would have been the majority and considering how racist people were back then, it wouldn't have happened) how would we have dismantled the caste system? (OOC: I know what you said; sorry.) Not to mention, an independent India would have had at least one civil war.

The dominions themselves weren't exactly perfect, though, and some still have problems: In fact, I still vividly remember the Christian-Muslim conflicts in the Bengal & Ceylon in the '80s; things got so bad at one point that the Russians damn near got involved, and that very well could have started the next Great War!

Oh, indeed! Those twats in the South wanted to have a second revolution over it! Luckily the North wasn't having any of it. In an independent USA, the issue may well have remained deadlocked for, God, I don't even know how long!

Maybe so, but, I'd like to point out that it was the North that originally came close to revolting, though, TBH. In fact, the Southerners only started complaining when Queen Charlotte's Parliament started listening to the abolitionists, and Victoria's following up on their calls for justice. And what's interesting is, is that some even actually demanded to be split off into a separate dominion. They almost got their wish, too; the Calhoun Act only failed by a margin of just a handful of votes.

Funny thing is, btw, a lot of these same Southrons hypocritically rushed to the defense of "New Spain" when that nasty little Habsburg Emperor tried, and failed, to put California and Tejas-Coahuila under military rule after they asked for more democratic government; what they got instead was independence. And maybe if the later movements had succeeded as well, perhaps Mexico wouldn't have become the tragically poverty & violence stricken mess that it did during much of the 20th Century.

And as for the BNA....well, segregation did, unfortunately, last until the middle 1970s in some parts of the country and ethnic tensions are still a problem down South as well as in some of the former Indiana Country regions. Perhaps if the South had indeed broken off after the Emancipation Act, we might have been better able to follow South Africa's example? :(
 
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If America was not defeated, then General Jackson would not have led the army of American nationalists in exile into Mexico, preventing the Northern Mexican War.
 
One thing for sure. Emperor Maximilian down in Mexico would have been overthrown by those republicans in the 1860's.
That would've been horrible. I shudder at the thought of a Latin America without the Mexican and Brazilian Empires of Maximiliano I and Pedro II. I suppose a surviving United States could take their place, but it might mean I'd be an Anglo instead of a Mexican. :p

If America was not defeated, then General Jackson would not have led the army of American nationalists in exile into Mexico, preventing the Northern Mexican War.
Argh, don't remind me of that bastard. Trying to carve off California and Texas from Mexico while committing genocide against the Pueblo, Apache and Yaqui tribes to make room for white settlers. My Yaqui relatives still call him "the butcher" because of the Rio Gila Massacre. :mad: I'm so glad he was crushed by Santa Ana at the Second Battle of Laredo (1837).
 
Argh, don't remind me of that bastard. Trying to carve off California and Texas from Mexico while committing genocide against the Pueblo, Apache and Yaqui tribes to make room for white settlers. My Yaqui relatives still call him "the butcher" because of the Rio Gila Massacre. :mad: I'm so glad he was crushed by Santa Ana at the Second Battle of Laredo (1837).
How's Los Angeles?
I'm just asking because if this America survived into the present age, will this city will become its film (and later, television) production center just like OTL?
 
If America was not defeated, then General Jackson would not have led the army of American nationalists in exile into Mexico, preventing the Northern Mexican War.

That would've been horrible. I shudder at the thought of a Latin America without the Mexican and Brazilian Empires of Maximiliano I and Pedro II. I suppose a surviving United States could take their place, but it might mean I'd be an Anglo instead of a Mexican. :p

You do? Really? Because Maximiliano was nothing more than a corrupt & power-drunk imbecile who sheltered slaveowners fleeing justice in the BNA, and ended up becoming viciously anti-Native to boot.
Pedro II's regime was itself responsible for destroying a huge amount of the surviving Mesoamerican societies in Brazil and he too cozied up to the slaveowners.

Granted, neither of these guys were total monsters, but neither where they virtuous heroes, either.


Argh, don't remind me of that bastard. Trying to carve off California and Texas from Mexico while committing genocide against the Pueblo, Apache and Yaqui tribes to make room for white settlers. My Yaqui relatives still call him "the butcher" because of the Rio Gila Massacre. :mad: I'm so glad he was crushed by Santa Ana at the Second Battle of Laredo (1837).

OOC: Umm.....I don't think you quite read my post all the way. We'll have to fix this a little.

IC: Umm....you kinda got things a bit mixed up there; Jackson was actually trying to *stop* California from seceding, not aid them(In fact, he tried to torch Los Angeles once, back in 1840; the humiliation at Laredo by the ex-royalist-turned-revolutionary didn't teach him squat, it seems.). He was one of the dozens of Southron generals who took up arms for Maximilian after the BNA illegalized slavery and the Emperor promised to give them shelter in exchange for help in quashing the various rebellions that were beginning to spring up.
Thankfully he failed, but it could have been disastrous had Maximilian and his allies succeeded.

How's Los Angeles?
I'm just asking because if this America survived into the present age, will this city will become its film (and later, television) production center just like OTL?

That'd be interesting to see. Jon Sobel hinted at this quite a bit in "For Want of a Nail" but never really offered much in the way of real detail.

As of right now, California's largest city has about 2.8 million people.....in a surviving U.S., it could be even larger, possibly. I certainly can say this: it would be far better off than any major city in rump Mexico I can think of; outside of Mexico City, nearly every other place is a rundown mess of a place, even including Veracruz now. The Obregon junta really fucked things up in the middle '70s-early '80s and even under Carlos II, nothing really works all that well.
 
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How's Los Angeles?
I'm just asking because if this America survived into the present age, will this city will become its film (and later, television) production center just like OTL?

There's also Toronto to consider with its very strong film (and television) scene. I can't imagine that TTL would have a five year long Star Trek featuring the voyages of the starship Beagle on its mission to discover new life and to boldly go where none other have gone before.

And of course what about Alan Thicke. I mean would have have became a household name as the Fifth Doctor after the sublime Tom Baker in this other timeline?
 
There's also Toronto to consider with its very strong film (and television) scene. I can't imagine that TTL would have a five year long Star Trek featuring the voyages of the starship Beagle on its mission to discover new life and to boldly go where none other have gone before.

And of course what about Alan Thicke. I mean would have have became a household name as the Fifth Doctor after the sublime Tom Baker in this other timeline?

Not to mention Yonge Street, the Broadway of Upper Canada. :D
 
There's also Toronto to consider with its very strong film (and television) scene. I can't imagine that TTL would have a five year long Star Trek featuring the voyages of the starship Beagle on its mission to discover new life and to boldly go where none other have gone before.

And of course what about Alan Thicke. I mean would have have became a household name as the Fifth Doctor after the sublime Tom Baker in this other timeline?
Technically, none of that is very likely, no, but that's the magic of fiction--if you want to still have Tom Baker be the Fifth Doctor in a world of a balkanized Empire, you can have Tom Baker be the Fifth Doctor in a world of a balkanized Empire. :D

The dominions themselves weren't exactly perfect, though, and some still have problems: In fact, I still vividly remember the Christian-Muslim conflicts in the Bengal & Ceylon in the '80s; things got so bad at one point that the Russians damn near got involved, and that very well could have started the next Great War!
Wasn't saying it was, just that, for all the faults of the Empire, the world is better off with it than without it. (Yeah, I know--not exactly a controversial stance. :rolleyes:) I mean, the infrastructure of British Africa was developed using moneys from the rest of the Empire--good luck getting people to invest like that in a foreign nation! Which has consequences beyond millions of people not being able to watch Doctor Who, you know--if the Dominion of Nigeria didn't have quality schools, geniuses like Dr. Karen Wainaina would never have gotten an education, and then where would our cure for Malaria be? Vaccines, blood for transfusions, and organs for transplant all need to be refrigerated, which is impossible without enough infrastructure to produce electricity reliably throughout the day, which is one of the many reasons mortality rates are so much higher outside the developed world--and belonging to the British Empire is how most of the developed world got developed.

And as for the BNA....well, segregation did, unfortunately, last until the middle 1970s in some parts of the country and ethnic tensions are still a problem down South as well as in some of the former Indiana Country regions. Perhaps if the South had indeed broken off after the Emancipation Act, we might have been better able to follow South Africa's example? :(
OOC: Are you saying South Africa broke out of the British Empire and then reformed? The way you phrased that is kind of confusing.
 
How's Los Angeles?
I'm just asking because if this America survived into the present age, will this city will become its film (and later, television) production center just like OTL?
It's great this time of year. Much cooler than in the summer. :eek:

As for Los Angeles' fate under American rule: I have a feeling it'd be a backwater, and San Francisco would become the primary commercial center in American Alta California.

You do? Really? Because Maximiliano was nothing more than a corrupt & power-drunk imbecile who sheltered slaveowners fleeing justice in the BNA, and ended up becoming viciously anti-Native to boot.
Maximiliano I outlawed child labor, abolished corporal punishment, got rid of debt peonage and broke up the Haciendas. Also, he didn't "shelter slaveowners" from BNA - they fled to Texas and practiced slavery illegally before trying to break away from Mexico when it became apparent that the Mexican government was not going to tolerate it.

Pedro II's regime was itself responsible for destroying a huge amount of the surviving Mesoamerican societies in Brazil and he too cozied up to the slaveowners.
Pedro II fought the slave trade tooth and nail, and was nearly overthrown because he abolished slavery and pissed off the slave owning elite.

Umm....you kinda got things a bit mixed up there; Jackson was actually trying to *stop* California from seceding, not aid them(In fact, he tried to torch Los Angeles once, back in 1840; the humiliation at Laredo by the ex-royalist-turned-revolutionary didn't teach him squat, it seems.). He was one of the dozens of Southron generals who took up arms for Maximilian after the BNA illegalized slavery and the Emperor promised to give them shelter in exchange for help in quashing the various rebellions that were beginning to spring up.
Thankfully he failed, but it could have been disastrous had Maximilian and his allies succeeded.
I believe you're thinking of Andrew Jackson Donelson and his brother Daniel Smith Donelson. They defected to the royalist side after Maximiliano offered clemency to any Texan rebels who were willing to help him fight the secessionist California Republic. And while the first Battle of Los Angeles was a failure, the second Battle of Los Angeles resulted in a decisive Mexican victory.

As of right now, California's largest city has about 2.8 million people.....in a surviving U.S., it could be even larger, possibly.
That is correct, but Los Angeles' population would be closer to around 5 million if the plebiscite to annex San Fernando hadn't failed.

I certainly can say this: it would be far better off than any major city in rump Mexico I can think of; outside of Mexico City, nearly every other place is a rundown mess of a place, even including Veracruz now. The Obregon junta really fucked things up in the middle '70s-early '80s and even under Carlos II, nothing really works all that well.
Certainly that was the case in the 80's, but Mexico has made a full recovery and is presently one of the world's fastest growing economies. Also, Veracruz is just fine.
 
Argh, don't remind me of that bastard. Trying to carve off California and Texas from Mexico while committing genocide against the Pueblo, Apache and Yaqui tribes to make room for white settlers. My Yaqui relatives still call him "the butcher" because of the Rio Gila Massacre. :mad: I'm so glad he was crushed by Santa Ana at the Second Battle of Laredo (1837).
Although, since Jackson had been building up his support within his army, if the United States won the war (which would probably be very close, and thus leave them damaged and unstable), he probably would have tried to take over as dictator.

Hey, that could be the impetus for the slave-free split, Jackson taking the South into a dictatorship, with the north breaking away as its own republic or else joining Britain in some fashion.
 
It's great this time of year. Much cooler than in the summer. :eek:

As for Los Angeles' fate under American rule: I have a feeling it'd be a backwater, and San Francisco would become the primary commercial center in American Alta California.

Maybe; some years ago, I recall Sobel talking about a state named "Colorado" that could have been placed South of the 36th parallel, but it didn't fit with his 50 State goal, though, so it was never done.

Maximiliano I outlawed child labor, abolished corporal punishment, got rid of debt peonage and broke up the Haciendas. Also, he didn't "shelter slaveowners" from BNA - they fled to Texas and practiced slavery illegally before trying to break away from Mexico when it became apparent that the Mexican government was not going to tolerate it.
OOC: I think you may have missed some of the other stuff I posted earlier. I think we can work with this, though.

IC: Yes, he basically did, sadly. In fact, slavery was only illegal in part of Tejas-Coahuila, namely, mainly San Antonio and the North Country. And guess where Jackson and company went? That's right, North Country. And Maximilian did nothing to stop them, either. In fact, the original Anglo settlers who'd come 20 years before partly started really outright revolting en masse because they were being displaced by the renegade Anglo-American planters(it was bad enough that the government was ignoring their requests for better government but this drove many over the edge) . And then Maximilian gave the planters full rights to own slaves in those regions by law in return for helping him fight the revolt. He may not have been pro-slavery, per se, that is true, but he did put unity before abolition(BTW, though, he did allow Mexico City legislators to ban slavery in that region in 1856, though it staggered on until 1875, when his son Max II approved the nationwide Abolition).

And as for the Native Americans, it may be true that the government did not actively persecute many societies(he did leave the Yaqui alone after the 1842 Treaty of Hermosillo). But the Apaches and the Comanches were victimized; Mexican citizens, particularly Sonorans, may remember the ambush & assassination of a young German cousin of Maximilian's while on a trip thru the area in 1844, just a few miles west of El Paso.....that's what drove him to persecute the remaining Apaches, Puebloans & Comanches. I will also admit that he did mellow out towards the end of his reign, but he did have that nasty streak to his policies for a good while, re: the Native Americans.

As for corporal punishment in the military, it was only abolished by the Congress in a very narrow vote in 1853 and this was despite Maximilian's reluctance to act on the matter. Debt peonage was abolished in Mexico City in 1847 but not nationwide until the 1890's, under Juan Pedro I; child labor, though banned in the nation's capital in 1857, that is true, still remained a problem in some areas until 1897.

Pedro II fought the slave trade tooth and nail, and was nearly overthrown because he abolished slavery and pissed off the slave owning elite.
Pedro II wasn't exactly bosom buddies of the remaining slavers, but he wasn't their enemy, either. In fact, it was the anti-slavery Reformists who asked him to abdicate.

I believe you're thinking of Andrew Jackson Donelson and his brother Daniel Smith Donelson. They defected to the royalist side after Maximiliano offered clemency to any Texan rebels who were willing to help him fight the secessionist California Republic. And while the first Battle of Los Angeles was a failure, the second Battle of Los Angeles resulted in a decisive Mexican victory.
Somewhat correct, but this was during the Arizona War 20 years later under Maximilian II. And I think you may have confused things with the Secession War; the First Battle of L.A. in the Arizona War was won by the Mexicans, but they lost the second when Colonel Fremont drove Donelson and company out.....though to be honest & fair, the exact opposite was true in the Secession War.....(o you were technically correct on that, just with the wrong war, that's all).

That is correct, but Los Angeles' population would be closer to around 5 million if the plebiscite to annex San Fernando hadn't failed.
Maybe so. It's still California's largest city, though, and perhaps if it had been made the country's new capital as had been proposed in the '70s(would have been tough to pull off, as Sacramento has held that position since 1892) it could have worked.

Certainly that was the case in the 80's, but Mexico has made a full recovery and is presently one of the world's fastest growing economies. Also, Veracruz is just fine.
Mexico's doing better, yes, but the general population hasn't quite benefitted all that much from the recent recovery, though, compared to the wealthy. I've recently been to Mexico myself, btw, and a lot of people are still struggling, even close to Mexico City. And Veracruz may not be the slum-ridden Potemkin village it once was, but it still has yet to come back to where it was in the early '70s, though.

Although, since Jackson had been building up his support within his army, if the United States won the war (which would probably be very close, and thus leave them damaged and unstable), he probably would have tried to take over as dictator.

Hey, that could be the impetus for the slave-free split, Jackson taking the South into a dictatorship, with the north breaking away as its own republic or else joining Britain in some fashion.

Sounds mostly plausible to me, though in a scenario where Ernest Augustus becomes King, Jackson's South might very well remain a Dominion, I'd think.

OOC: BTW, I'd like to apologize if I unintentionally came off as a tad pushy in certain of my earlier IC postings. No hard feelings, I hope?
 
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Um, stupid question: why are so many people assuming a surviving America would conquer California? I mean, BNA didn't, after all. Was that in For Want of a Nail or something? I never read it.
 
Um, stupid question: why are so many people assuming a surviving America would conquer California? I mean, BNA didn't, after all. Was that in For Want of a Nail or something? I never read it.

It could have happened, but do remember that our world's California had been able to build up enough manpower to fend off the Confederated Army by the time the Rocky Mountain War started in 1902; needless to say it was a quick campaign, lasting only 25 whole months.

In FWoAN, however, California was annexed mainly because of it's low population.....and a provincial government more than willing to give the U.S. a chance. And despite the increasing amount of clamor from the South against such, then President Taylor(a councilman from Louisiana in our world's 1850) said yes, and it became a free state.
 
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