Creating new non-national empires

Strategos' Risk · Oct 26, 2008

From Faaelin's Mustafa the Pretender TL:

The Christian Empire

Carlos, King of France, Spain, and Naples, personally welcome the Pope in Avignon. Clement gives a stirring speech on how this is the Church’s darkest hour, when the forces of heresy are preparing for the final war. He appoints Carlos as "Emperor of Christ, the West, and God willing, the World." Clement then makes some noises to sooth Ladislas, appointing him the Protector of the Faith. The creation of the Christian Empire backfires, as even the Catholics of England and Italy view this as a political move.

Carlos I dies, and is succeeded by his son, Filippo, in 1563. Not content with his current holdings, Phillip turns his eyes on Portugal, which has been, for the last 40 years, a Spanish vassal anyway. With the support of the Pope, King Sebastian dies, and Ferdinand, Duke of Mexico, is put forward as a candidate for the throne (his wife was a sister of Sebastian). Ferdinand gains the throne of Portugal after a Spanish invasion, and France, Portugal, and Spain are under the rule of the Christian Empire. With that task completed, Filippo begins construction of the Christian Armada, and sends messages to Alexus, Edward, Ferdinand, and Ladislas. Ferdinand politely declines, and begins sending messages to Albert and the Senate regarding an alliance, but Edward and Ladislas agree to support any moves against the nations of Venice and the Empire. In 1572, on Easter Sunday, the galleys of the Empire set sail.

That's kind of a novel idea, a particularly devout Catholic creating a empire like that out of his preexisting holdings. Could there be any analogous alternate history scenarios? It doesn't necessarily have to involve religion.

Strategos' Risk · Oct 27, 2008

Are there no examples in history other than the Holy Roman Empire?

Snake Featherston · Oct 27, 2008

You could point to what happened when Egypt united, two kingdoms becoming one Pharaonic Empire. You could also point to the Soviet Union as an analogy.

An interesting AH analogue might be if Burr succeeds in his plan to create his empire in Louisiana, or alternately if the Lunda Empire had decided to create a pan-Central African state in the early colonial age in Africa. Speaking of which, there aren't many African PODs on this site, and someone should do somethng with the Central African region in terms of AH, it's rather ignored. Perhaps my next TL after I finish IIFYOS.

Strategos' Risk · Oct 28, 2008

I don't know about Egypt, but the USSR is a perfect example. Sure, it included many lands belonging to the Russosphere, but it was abruptly created to promote a previously disenfranchised political ideology. I don't think Burr's Empire is exactly what I have in mind here, though.

sunsurf · Nov 9, 2008

Sobel's For Want of a Nail has a corporation becoming like an empire.

Disney; General Electric.

In the late 1800s a corporation arises in Europe or Russia, and is taken over by fascists. The corporation takes indirect and unofficial control of the government, which proceeds to launch a war of conquest...

Tobit · Nov 9, 2008

I think if Bolivar was successful it would be a non-national empire.

I can think of some pretty dystopic ideas like a successful Congo Free State would qualify as a non-national empire simply because it was designed as simply a pure profit creating empire.

Perhaps if the Portuguese Kings were able to stay in Brazil but also keep Portugal under their power, despite napoleon and internal powers. They might be able to integrate all of their holdings into a Lusophonic empire.

Dutchie · Nov 10, 2008

I'm seeing two sorts of answers coming out here... one, a state comprised of many nations like the Soviet Union or the HRE. Second is a non-state entity taking on state-like qualities like a corporation-run country.

For the many-nations state:

Roman Empire - or indeed any empire from Antiquity (Persian, Greek, etc.)
Any of the Caliphates
Early Chinese Empires
Mongol Empire
etc. etc.

For corporate-state:

East India Company
West India Company
Hudson's Bay Company
etc. etc.

Strategos' Risk · Sep 19, 2009

I'm thinking about many-nations states during the medieval era or the Age of Discovery.

What if royal families that ruled several nations formalized their empire at the cost of the identities of their component nations? Say a formalized Angevin Empire composed of England and northern France, or a formalized Hapsburg Empire. Yeah, this would be quite different from the HRE.

ShadowCommunist2009 · Sep 19, 2009

I particularly like this specific wording:

With the support of the Pope, King Sebastian dies

Pre-Revolutionary War French colonies in the new world were treated with a policy known as "inclusion" in which the indigenous people were treated as potential citizens. Perhaps if early colonial France went further with this policy and actually began incorporating the colonies as departments (I don't know what the political divisions were called in France at the time) of French proper and created a maritime, multi-national Bourbon Empire?

The Kiat · Sep 19, 2009

What early Chinese Empires are you talking about? The Middle Kingdom was first united by the Qin, and that was a national empire.

Strategos' Risk · Oct 17, 2009

Okay, game mechanics and all that, in my current Crusader Kings game (DVIP, More Kingdoms mod whoo) I've turned Aquitaine into a real empire. First I joined in the early-early reconquista, became the Kingdom of Navarre (an oddly Occitan instead of Basque state), then started crusading in North Africa, then the Levant, now I'm at the Straits of Hormuz. I am the King of Aquitania, Navarre, Aragon, Mauretania, Africa, Egypt, Arabia, and perhaps soon Persia as well.

1. Okay this is all wildly implausible, but what sort of name should I give this empire? I'm thinking of calling it the (most) Christian Occitan Empire. Or maybe Crusading Occitan Empire. The crusader's version of the HRE. Forget recreating Rome, I'm creating a new imperial legacy of my own!

2. Could anything similar like this happen in the real-world? This is the gist of the Christian Empire idea from the OP- someone acquires several historical kingdoms, and declare themselves emperor. Why couldn't the Hapsburgs have declared a formal empire over Spain, Austria, and their other holdings, superseding the historical kingdoms they ruled over? It would be analogous to the HRE ruling over the regions of Germany, Italy, and Burgundy.

iori · Oct 17, 2009

Fro OTL versions the United States up until probably 1890 I think would qualify as well as the modern European Union.

As for ATL scenarios, well perhaps Trans-Iberian colonization, that is Spain and Portugal jointly colonizing, maybe even add in France.

Strategos' Risk · Oct 17, 2009

Iori said:
Fro OTL versions the United States up until probably 1890

No. The U.S. had an undeclared defacto economic empire and a lot of political pull but it was not formally an empire as what I'm getting at.

I think would qualify as well as the modern European Union.

The EU kinda is like the USSR kinda is but the EU represents a historical region/political confederation so it's not even close to being a unified empire.

As for ATL scenarios, well perhaps Trans-Iberian colonization, that is Spain and Portugal jointly colonizing, maybe even add in France.

No that's ridiculous unless Spain dominates Portugal or there's an actual royal family that rules all of Iberia.

Really, the focus on this thread is on empires formed between the fall of Rome to the Renaissance. Think about how and why the HRE was formed, as a spiritual successor to Rome in concept but really also to justify the conquests of a warlord-turned-emperor. Think if this can be applied to any other situations. Also possible is if several kingdoms end up being ruled by the same dynasty and they decide to dissolve the historical kingdoms in favor of a new imperial identity.

iori · Oct 17, 2009

Strategos' Risk said:
No that's ridiculous unless Spain dominates Portugal or there's an actual royal family that rules all of Iberia.

Thei was an Iberian Union at one point, just make it stick and their ya go, joint Spanish-Portuguese Colonies.

Susano · Oct 17, 2009

Nationalities states? That was discarded as a bad idea in the 19th century and yet again in the early 90s...

Ephraim Ben Raphael · Oct 17, 2009

The Kiat said:
What early Chinese Empires are you talking about? The Middle Kingdom was first united by the Qin, and that was a national empire.

Was the Qin really a national empire? I got the sense that it was not until Qin Shi Huang's unification that the Han Chinese began to develop any sort of national identity.

Tobit · Oct 18, 2009

Ephraim Ben Raphael said:
Was the Qin really a national empire? I got the sense that it was not until Qin Shi Huang's unification that the Han Chinese began to develop any sort of national identity.

See what Susano posted, nationalty based political bodies is a farely recent creation the 19th century wasn't too happy a place for it. Remember prior to nationalty based states patronage and bureaucracy.
Nationhood wasn't an ingrained point of view until the 19th century at least.

Strategos' Risk · Oct 18, 2009

Yet there was a sense of identity to historical regions/cultures/ethnicities such as "Italy" or "France."

...

I've been learning too much history from Paradox games, haven't I.

Tobit · Oct 18, 2009

Strategos' Risk said:
Yet there was a sense of identity to historical regions/cultures/ethnicities such as "Italy" or "France."

...

I've been learning too much history from Paradox games, haven't I.

No, it's a paradox. Whether nationality predated nation-statehood is basically not understood by historians. It could go either way.

Citizen · Oct 18, 2009

I'm fairly sure there was an understanding of nation-hood long before the 19th century, it's just prior to the nation-state, nation and state were separate concepts.