Could Hitler had defeated Soviet Union without Britain

If the Soviets were being led by a fully rational human being, then
I think it would be incredibly unlikely for them to lose.
Unfortunately for them, they were being led by Stalin.

The scenario that seems somewhat possible to me would be something like:

1. As an initial divergence, Germany decides to emphasize relations with China rather than Japan.
Many Germans were more sympathetic to the Chinese, and they already had military advisers helping the Nationalists.

2. The catalyst of war stays the same, but for one reason or another, Germany closes the noose, and captures the British and French armies at Dunkirk.

3. Japan, seeing that France utterly defeated, and Britain is on the verge of collapse, attempts to repeat WW1 on a grand-scale. They invade the French English and Dutch East Asian empires, and rapidly make progress, as they had historically.

4. Britain is desperate. Germany has taken hundreds of thousands of their troops captive. Japan is crushing them in the East, and Indian independence leaders know that the British Army is gone. This desperation lingers as the Germans begin looking for a formal surrender, and the Japanese make more progress every day.

5. Japan takes Singapore, and their officers either lose, or release control over their men. Singapore gets the Nanking treatment, and everyone finds out about it.

6. During WW2, Japan and Germany had an odd habit of having people who cared about human rights in each other's territories, but not in their own. Germany, already disliking the Japanese because of their brutality toward China, are even more hostile now. They offer a deal.

7. Generous peace with Britain. The British Army and their supplies returned, in return for a Bilateral peace treaty. Principled British politicians oppose this, they are shouted down by a drowning nation, looking for salvation.

8. The peace, is arranged, and agreed to in secret talks, while Germany and Britain gear up to strike down what their leaders consider to be the worse enemy.

9. It's 1941 mid spring. British ships sail into Channel ports, and take their army home. They continue preparation for revenge in the East, at the same time, Barbarossa begins.

10. The USSR had every reason to believe Germany was planning this IRL, but Stalin refused to believe it. The Nazis were considered an inherently proletariat movement. Additionally, the Soviets had somewhat favorable relations with the Chinese Nationalists. In a world where the Germans have still crushed France and Britain, and are aligned with China, I can't see Stalin changing his mind.

11. The war goes roughly the same as it did IRL. There's fewer distractions in the West to pacify, but the Germans didn't keep the British equipment. It evens out.

12. Japan is facing the full might of the British Empire, and is almost certainly being embargoed by the USA. If Japan attempts or has attempted Pearl Harbor, then they fair far worse than in OTL. It's difficult to predict their actions in this scenario.

13. I think that many people in important positions in FDR's government would remain sympathetic to the USSR. FDR's hostility toward Germany had little to do with his love of the British Empire. I do not think they would be able to justify nearly as much, and without Japan as an ally, Hitler doesn't have the opportunity to drag Germany into a moronic war with the US.

14. Stalin is the key to the Eastern (now only) front. His will keeps his country fighting, and his madness will hold his country back at the same time. Stalin stayed in Moscow. If for some reason Germany sieges Moscow, and something goes wrong, the USSR dies with him.
I think it's up in the air.

...

Anyway, I won't say that this scenario is particularly plausible, but it was kind of fun to think it though.
Since that's what AH is for, I figure I'll share my interpretation of this scenario.

Hmm...
Looks like the basis of a good AH timeline/story that i might start in a few months.
Thanks for the inspiration.
And about the Nanjing massacre ITTL, did the Nazis use John Rabe's films and letters as propaganda against Japan?
 
You shouldn't use a movie as a source.

And the performance of the foreign units is neither here nor there with the problem of arming, equipping, feeding, training and paying them.

Additionally, the performance of the foreign units was uneven. You like to look at the Latvian ones, but you prefer to ignore the Albanian or Croatian ones.



The Germans used slave labor in OTL, you know. That included Soviet POWs.

Foreign SS units were a coin flip, that i know.
Weapons could be captured foreign models (they did this a lot OTL)
Units could be based in their homeland, especially if Germany was losing
they would fight harder to defend their home from invaders

And yes i know the germans used slave labor in OTL
but OTL they rarely used them for farming, instead mostly hard labor
 
Hmm...
Looks like the basis of a good AH timeline/story that i might start in a few months.
Thanks for the inspiration.
And about the Nanjing massacre ITTL, did the Nazis use John Rabe's films and letters as propaganda against Japan?

I assume that their propagandists would never let a good opportunity for propaganda go to waste.

Especially because this propaganda is useful for demoralizing and distracting the British from the European war effort.
 
Don't see Nazis defeating USSR even with British out of the war.They didn't have the manpower and racial attitudes squandered the real possibility of Ukrainian and anti communist Russians fighting on their side,or at least keeping partisans under control on their supply lines.And their supply lines were short on fuel and trucks,plus what resources they had were pumped into the V terror weapons or slaughtering Jews,Roma,Slavs.To get as far as they did was amazing when seen from current day
 
Its easiest for the Germans to apply extra their extra strength in the Baltic states, better infrastructure than elsewhere, we had a TL on here with an extra panzer corps pushing through the area, could encircle another Soviet army and clear the region quicker. Better aircraft basing infastructure is present too. The unoccupied German navy can make a supply effort. Leningrad falls in 1941 in this TL. OTL supply issues across the dnieper, and repairs to AGC infastructure probably make it harder to push further than OTL center and south.

I can see the Germans passing on a Tuphoon phase 1 or maybe 2 in this timeline, less pressure to win now here.

The germans should have a lot more strength in 1942, a much larger Luftwaffe, and better logistics without the trucks in north Africa.

Some sort of temporary peace is possible late 42 once the Germans capture a major oil source.
No British naval blockade, remember. The Germans can get oil and food from overseas, and move it by ship to German or even Polish ports.
Also, no loss of German transport aircraft in the original timeline attack on Crete.
Better logistics, at least going into the theatre (once in Russia, some problems such as rail gauge and wrecked coaling stages and water-towers still bite) than in original timeline 1941.
 

marathag

Banned
No British naval blockade, remember. The Germans can get oil and food from overseas, and move it by ship to German or even Polish ports.
How they paying for it? before the War, they were doing barter deals with Mexico, they didn't have a lot of Gold for foreign trade.

Think the Neutral Powers will take looted Gold for payment?
 
How they paying for it? before the War, they were doing barter deals with Mexico, they didn't have a lot of Gold for foreign trade.

Think the Neutral Powers will take looted Gold for payment?
how will they know unless the nazis tell them?
i mean, they could just melt the gold down into bars and no one would know
 
I assume that their propagandists would never let a good opportunity for propaganda go to waste.

Especially because this propaganda is useful for demoralizing and distracting the British from the European war effort.
So based on your earlier post, would China ultimately be united under a Nationalist government? (Assuming the Nazis win the war)
And in your imagination, would China (after beating the Chicoms and Japan of course) help the Nazis attack Soviet held Siberia in the late 1940s?
Also, what about the whole Nazi racial policy/law thing? Would the Nazis just declare the Chinese to be Honorary Aryans like they did with the Japanese OTL?
 
So based on your earlier post, would China ultimately be united under a Nationalist government? (Assuming the Nazis win the war)
And in your imagination, would China (after beating the Chicoms and Japan of course) help the Nazis attack Soviet held Siberia in the late 1940s?
Also, what about the whole Nazi racial policy/law thing? Would the Nazis just declare the Chinese to be Honorary Aryans like they did with the Japanese OTL?

Nazi racial policy was an inconsistent philosophical mess.
IRL, I believe they referred to the Chinese as "culture creators".

In practice, I dont think the Nazi leadership cared about the Chinese or Japanese as ethnic groups.
Which ever one was chosen would be declared "honorary aryans" as an empty political gesture.

The Nationalist Chinese would likely have had more success in their efforts to fight off the Japanese. But I have trouble believing they would be in a position to invade the USSR.

IOTL, the USSR held back a significant number of troops and equipment to defend against a potential Japanese invasion.

The USSR also had significant influence of the anti Japanese Chinese forces, and not just on Mao.

I cant see the Nationalist Chinese invading the USSR until the Japanese are beaten.

I can see them initiating a much more succesful civil war, and beating the Chinese communists soon after the Japanese are pushed out.

If the German invasion of the USSR is still in progress at that point, I could see Stalin reassigning troops to guard against a Chinese attack, or even rerouting troops to assist in the civil war.

It might distract the USDR enough to give the Germans a better chance of success.
 
Nazi racial policy was an inconsistent philosophical mess.
IRL, I believe they referred to the Chinese as "culture creators".

In practice, I dont think the Nazi leadership cared about the Chinese or Japanese as ethnic groups.
Which ever one was chosen would be declared "honorary aryans" as an empty political gesture.

The Nationalist Chinese would likely have had more success in their efforts to fight off the Japanese. But I have trouble believing they would be in a position to invade the USSR.

IOTL, the USSR held back a significant number of troops and equipment to defend against a potential Japanese invasion.

The USSR also had significant influence of the anti Japanese Chinese forces, and not just on Mao.

I cant see the Nationalist Chinese invading the USSR until the Japanese are beaten.

I can see them initiating a much more succesful civil war, and beating the Chinese communists soon after the Japanese are pushed out.

If the German invasion of the USSR is still in progress at that point, I could see Stalin reassigning troops to guard against a Chinese attack, or even rerouting troops to assist in the civil war.

It might distract the USDR enough to give the Germans a better chance of success.
Yeah this post pretty much sums up the most likely outcome
i guess Nationalist China would mostly exist to draw Soviet troops away from the Eastern Front after they beat Japan and the Chicoms
 
Yes, the Balkan Diversion in early 1941 was a major factor in the failure to collapse the USSR in 1941.

Actually it wasn't. It's a commonly held belief, but it's false. The fighting in mainland Greece ended on April 30, and the Battle of Crete ended on June 1. Rivers in the Western Soviet Union were in flood stage till late spring, and the Germans needed to wait till the ground was hard, and dry enough for mobile operations. Having gotten almost no notice the Finns, and Romanians needed some additional time to get ready for their parts of the operation. They couldn't have started much sooner, maybe a week, or two. Army Group South would have been better off, because most of the Panzer Divisions, and air support used in the Balkans were assigned to it. Panzer Group I, and Lufflotte IV would've had more time for rest, and refit, but It wouldn't have made much difference.
 
How they paying for it? before the War, they were doing barter deals with Mexico, they didn't have a lot of Gold for foreign trade.

Think the Neutral Powers will take looted Gold for payment?
Why not? Turkey kept selling Chromium to them in the original timeline, until it was clear that the Allies were going to win, and chances of German payback for stopping selling were practically non-existent.
I'm pretty sure the Germans obtained Tungsten from the Iberian peninsula too.
And these are actual, honest-to-goodness stuff you make weapons out of, not grain or flour.

Edit:
If the USA decided it didn't like the idea of fascists and Nazis fighting the Communists, it might decide to embargo oil, wherever its influence stretched (although presumably with Britain on board with a peace, the Netherlands government will have had to come to some accommodation with Germany, and will be prepared to sell oil, if the USA and/or Imperial Japan doesn't want to outbid Germany for it...)
 
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If the Soviets were being led by a fully rational human being, then
I think it would be incredibly unlikely for them to lose.
Unfortunately for them, they were being led by Stalin.

I dunno...a fully rational human being, after having seen Germany's unbroken rise-bluffing/forcing their way into the Rhineland; annexing Austria, the Sudetenland, and Czechoslovakia; invading Poland, France and the Low Countries; and expelling Great Britain from the continent in such a manner as to (per OP) successfully remove them from the war (even if temporarily)-would be well within reason to make a negotiated peace, on whatever terms possible, ASAP. Remember, 1939 is not that far removed from the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which sucked for the Russians but ended WWI and its attendant problems for them. I daresay only a maniacal psychopath like Stalin would even try to fight it out, let alone succeed.
 
Actually it wasn't. It's a commonly held belief, but it's false. The fighting in mainland Greece ended on April 30, and the Battle of Crete ended on June 1. Rivers in the Western Soviet Union were in flood stage till late spring, and the Germans needed to wait till the ground was hard, and dry enough for mobile operations. Having gotten almost no notice the Finns, and Romanians needed some additional time to get ready for their parts of the operation. They couldn't have started much sooner, maybe a week, or two. Army Group South would have been better off, because most of the Panzer Divisions, and air support used in the Balkans were assigned to it. Panzer Group I, and Lufflotte IV would've had more time for rest, and refit, but It wouldn't have made much difference.

By June 10th the flood waters had receded and the diversion of 12th Army to occupational duty in the Balkans was very decisive: it prevented AGS from doing encirclements like her sister groups and ultimately necessitated the Kiev Diversion in August.
 
Elsewhere I have seen claims that Germans lost because they tried to take the Soviets in one go. If they had conceived Barbarossa as a two year campaign, they would have had better chances.

If they had consolidated after Kiev instead of the bloody crawl to Moscow, they would have saved their best formations from getting wrecked. Plus they would have more resources to put on reinforcements to Eastern front, if they weren't fighting the Brits at the same time.

My point wasn't that this becomes ASB ("fantasy-esque"). My point is that giving multiple divergences all favorable to one side has a clear connotation, for which an impolite word is often used here.
And creating such scenarios is detrimental to this site, both in itself no matter what's the party thus favored, but also, and not the least, because for some reason 90% of these ATLs are about a Nazi triumph, which tends to cast the site in a certain light and to attract a certain type of users.

Umm.. what? People are making scenarios with "Nazi triumph", because historically they lost and it tends to be interesting to consider how they could have done better despite their material disadvantage.

There's nothing interesting in a scenario where the winners just win more.
 
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Elsewhere I have seen claims that Germans lost because they tried to take the Soviets in one go. If they had conceived Barbarossa as a two year campaign, they would have had better chances.

In this scenario, maybe. In OTL, no. In OTL their only chance was a KO victory by the fall of 1941.


Umm.. what? People are making scenarios with "Nazi triumph", because historically they lost and it tends to be interesting to consider how they could have done better despite their material disadvantage.

There's nothing interesting in a scenario where the winners just win more.

We'll have to disagree.
 
If the United Kingdom was supporting Germany, yes, they probably could have defeated the Soviet Union.
 
By June 10th the flood waters had receded and the diversion of 12th Army to occupational duty in the Balkans was very decisive: it prevented AGS from doing encirclements like her sister groups and ultimately necessitated the Kiev Diversion in August.

Ok June 10. So they might have started a week earlier, not a significant difference. It wasn't a shortage of infantry divisions that prevented encirclements, it was panzer, and motorized divisions. In 1941 the Red Army deployed a disproportionally strong force facing AGS, giving it a less favorable ration of forces then the other two AGs. Panzer Group I had several major rivers to cross, which slowed it's progress, and it lacked another panzer group to act as a second pincer to envelop soviet forces, until Guderian's Panzer Group II turned south. Kiev was the greatest tactical victory for Germany in the War.

The common wisdom is that Guderian's drive on Kiev was a mistake, which cost Germany the chance to take Moscow in 1941. I'm with a school that thinks Hitler's decision to turn south was the correct one. Most of the German Generals were obsessed with Moscow, and wanted to press on toward it immediately after the Battle of Smolensk. The Battle of Smolensk cost the Germans 135,000 casualties, and heavy losses in tanks, and vehicles. By the time the Germans closed out the Smolensk Pocket on September 10 AGC had been fighting, and marching for 6 weeks, and needed rest, and refitting. You have to remember despite myth most German Infantry were on foot, not carried by motor vehicles. The strong Red Army Forces on the right flank of AGC would have made any advance on Moscow a hazardous operation.

Guderian infuriated the top army command by siding with Hitler on the decision to delay the drive on Moscow, and shift the objective to Ukraine. Taking the Donets Basin, trapping another 100,000 Soviet Troops along the Sea of Azov, and invading the Crimea deprived the Soviets of valuable resources, and put a great strain on the Red Army. It also put Guderian's Panzer Group II in a position to threaten Moscow from the south. By then AGC was ready to resume the Moscow offensive. The resulting smashing victories at Vyazma, and Bryansk tore open the front, and threatened Moscow. The mistake the Germans made was not going over to the defensive on October 7, when rain, and snow started turning the ground to mud.

At that point they should have realized the game was up, and drawn back to a winter line. Hitler's other big mistake was not capturing Leningrad when he could've in September, rather then seige it. Taking Leningrad would have closed out the Baltic, established a land link with Finland, and shortened AGN's Front. If they'd done those things they would have withstood the winter much better, and been in a much stronger position in the Spring of 1942, but then Hitler never knew when to stop. Like Napoleon before him, Hitler was a compulsive gambler, and a control freak.
 
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I dunno...a fully rational human being, after having seen Germany's unbroken rise-bluffing/forcing their way into the Rhineland; annexing Austria, the Sudetenland, and Czechoslovakia; invading Poland, France and the Low Countries; and expelling Great Britain from the continent in such a manner as to (per OP) successfully remove them from the war (even if temporarily)-would be well within reason to make a negotiated peace, on whatever terms possible, ASAP. Remember, 1939 is not that far removed from the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which sucked for the Russians but ended WWI and its attendant problems for them. I daresay only a maniacal psychopath like Stalin would even try to fight it out, let alone succeed.

He tried that, with the Nazi/Soviet Pack, and it didn't hold. Yes Stalin was a paranoid, vindictive personality, with sociopathic tendencies, but what choice would he have but to fight it out, with Hitler? The Nazis were fighting a war of annihilation against the Soviet People. They planned to kill 30 million Slavs, by starvation, raze their Cities, drive millions more beyond the Urals, and reduce the rest to slavery, to serve the Master Race. That doesn't leave much to negotiate about.
 
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