Conversion to Islam during the Christian Reformation

[Hvalrossen]

What if a group formed during the Christian Reformation of people who converted to Islam. Not due to being conquered by the Ottomans, and thus coming under Muslim rule. Instead a group, almost certainly a minority, converting to Islam of their own volition.

How would the Christian mainstream react to such a group emerging? Especially considering the threat posed by the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Anneessens]

Rather Turkish than Popish, anyone?

Although I could imagine an isolated intellectual or two to become interested in Islam and convert, I'm having a hard time imagining a viable community of Muslim converts surviving for a long time during the Reformation. Perhaps in the United Provinces, with its relative tolerance of Jews, but even then, there's a difference in society's reaction between people born in another faith and remaining there and adherents of the "True Religion", even in its Catholic form, converting to Islam.

 

[Hvalrossen]

Rather Turkish than Popish, anyone?

That saying was the inspiration behind making this thread.

Although I could imagine an isolated intellectual or two to become interested in Islam and convert, I'm having a hard time imagining a viable community of Muslim converts surviving for a long time during the Reformation. Perhaps in the United Provinces, with its relative tolerance of Jews, but even then, there's a difference in society's reaction between people born in another faith and remaining there and adherents of the "True Religion", even in its Catholic form, converting to Islam.

There was intellectuals who had a interest in Islam, and Islamic texts. Though I am not aware of anyone converting due to this more scholarly interest in theology. Martin Luther was among those who wished for the Quran to be published in Christian Europe. Though he argued in favor of this in order to refute it, and proclaim the superiority or truth of Christianity over Islam.

What may be more likely than a conversion to Islam, and founding of a Muslim community of converts in Europe is the founding of Christian denomination/sect inspired by it. This community would not self identify as Muslim, most likely they would still identify as Christian. Less likely in my opinion than identifying as Muslim or Christian is identifying as a new religion.

This denomination would draw people from the radical fringes of European Christianity.

Let's say that a community springs up of converts who see themselves as Muslims. This community may not be recognized as Muslims by the Islamic mainstream. Perhaps due to unorthodoxies in the denomination as a result of the Christian heritage of it's followers.

The existence of this community may be short, or perhaps likely to be short due to pressure put on it. Persecution could overtime kill or compel members to revert to mainstream Christianity. Alternatively, the members may be compelled or encouraged by pull/push factors to migrate into the Ottoman Empire. Settling in the Ottoman Balkans where they would be granted freedom to worship and perhaps free land.

 

[Ogrelord420]

This could work in Poland-Lithuania since they not only had the Reformation but tolerance of Muslims (Lipka Tatars). Maybe a couple Unitarian sects would convert, but their numbers would be small enough that they’d probably have been assimilated into the Tatar population.

Everywhere else it wouldn’t have been allowed. Even letting other Christian sects exist was unthinkable to many, let alone allowing a rival religion

 

[Jürgen]

This could work in Poland-Lithuania since they not only had the Reformation but tolerance of Muslims (Lipka Tatars). Maybe a couple Unitarian sects would convert, but their numbers would be small enough that they’d probably have been assimilated into the Tatar population.

Everywhere else it wouldn’t have been allowed. Even letting other Christian sects exist was unthinkable to many, let alone allowing a rival religion

I find Christian conversion to Judaism more likely than conversion to Islam. The problem with Islam is that it’s not very interesting from a Christian perspective.

 

[Hvalrossen]

This could work in Poland-Lithuania since they not only had the Reformation but tolerance of Muslims (Lipka Tatars). Maybe a couple Unitarian sects would convert, but their numbers would be small enough that they’d probably have been assimilated into the Tatar population.

Everywhere else it wouldn’t have been allowed. Even letting other Christian sects exist was unthinkable to many, let alone allowing a rival religion

I think this scenario could play out anywhere. The main determinant of whether a group emerges being the degree of radicalism in the population. If a territory already as a large amount of religious and theological strife in addition to the founding of new movements. Then that area is going to be more fertile for preachers than a largely homogenous region.

That said such a movement may be longer lasting in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth than in, let's say Bavaria.

I find Christian conversion to Judaism more likely than conversion to Islam. The problem with Islam is that it’s not very interesting from a Christian perspective.

Judaizing was a recurring phenomena in Christianity with sects adopting practices from in line with Judaism from the Old Testament. In Russia a movement known as the Subbotniks emerged, many of whom adopted a Jewish identity along with Zionism.

 

[jacob ningen]

I think this scenario could play out anywhere. The main determinant of whether a group emerges being the degree of radicalism in the population. If a territory already as a large amount of religious and theological strife in addition to the founding of new movements. Then that area is going to be more fertile for preachers than a largely homogenous region.

That said such a movement may be longer lasting in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth than in, let's say Bavaria.

Judaizing was a recurring phenomena in Christianity with sects adopting practices from in line with Judaism from the Old Testament. In Russia a movement known as the Subbotniks emerged, many of whom adopted a Jewish identity along with Zionism.

and then you have the Martin Bubers who planned to convert to christianity but abandoned that plan for becoming Baalei Teshuva in the Enlightenment after one Kol Nidrei service.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I find Christian conversion to Judaism more likely than conversion to Islam. The problem with Islam is that it’s not very interesting from a Christian perspective.

You mean uninteresting from a European perspective. But what if becoming Muslim allowed them greater access to eastern trade?

 

[Evil Crusader]

You mean uninteresting from a European perspective. But what if becoming Muslim allowed them greater access to eastern trade?

Single merchants would still be ostracized for going Muslim, whole countries would likely be tolerated only if they were not a threat to Ottoman dominance, though.

On the OP, I believe a great example are the Greeks of the Ottoman Empire; they certainly welcomed the turban rather than the tiara, but never quite fully converted even after centuries.

 

[Zireael]

This could work in Poland-Lithuania since they not only had the Reformation but tolerance of Muslims (Lipka Tatars). Maybe a couple Unitarian sects would convert, but their numbers would be small enough that they’d probably have been assimilated into the Tatar population.

Everywhere else it wouldn’t have been allowed. Even letting other Christian sects exist was unthinkable to many, let alone allowing a rival religion

Poland-Lithuania didn't have the Reformation (they were Catholic and strongly so - the only Protestant king, Louis Valois, was made to sign special articles that promised Protestantism would never be introduced)
The Tatars were a minority so small it didn't bear mentioning (And again, see above)

 

[historyfool]

Poland-Lithuania didn't have the Reformation (they were Catholic and strongly so - the only Protestant king, Louis Valois, was made to sign special articles that promised Protestantism would never be introduced)
The Tatars were a minority so small it didn't bear mentioning (And again, see above)

Poland-Lithuania is a bit of an odd case. It had strong competing Protestant movements in the 16th century that actually managed to cooperate and achieve significant political influence and a degree of religious tolerance unusual for the time - including for a few years in the 1570s full religious freedom for Jews and Muslims. Only to then turn to an increasingly intolerant Catholicism while the rest of Europe relaxed restrictions (see for example the suppression of the Polish brethren in the 17th century). Religious prosecution in Poland increased well into the 18th century with the execution of Protestants in Thorn 1724 and new harsher laws in the 1730s, when even most of Europe's fanatics were content with expulsion of unwelcome religious minorities.

 

[Augenis]

Poland-Lithuania didn't have the Reformation (they were Catholic and strongly so - the only Protestant king, Louis Valois, was made to sign special articles that promised Protestantism would never be introduced)
The Tatars were a minority so small it didn't bear mentioning (And again, see above)

At a time during the 16th century, 75% or so of Polish nobility were Protestant. Poland is strongly Catholic nowadays not because the Reformation was never there, but rather because it was one of the greatest successes of the Counter-Reformation.

 

[Zireael]

At a time during the 16th century, 75% or so of Polish nobility were Protestant. Poland is strongly Catholic nowadays not because the Reformation was never there, but rather because it was one of the greatest successes of the Counter-Reformation.

Yes, but IMHO what matters is the king's (in effect, the state's) religion

 

[Jan Olbracht]

At a time during the 16th century, 75% or so of Polish nobility were Protestant. Poland is strongly Catholic nowadays not because the Reformation was never there, but rather because it was one of the greatest successes of the Counter-Reformation.

70% may be true for big magnates, but not for nobility as whole (especially taking into account numerous lesser nobles of Mazovia, who were quite resistant to Protestantism).

But neither magnates nor nobles were interested in converting their peasants, that is why it was easy to undo spread of Protestantism.

 

[Anneessens]

What may be more likely than a conversion to Islam, and founding of a Muslim community of converts in Europe is the founding of Christian denomination/sect inspired by it. This community would not self identify as Muslim, most likely they would still identify as Christian. Less likely in my opinion than identifying as Muslim or Christian is identifying as a new religion.

This denomination would draw people from the radical fringes of European Christianity.

I actually had the same idea this morning, before I read your post.

The question then would be what theological inspiration such a group could find in Islam while remeaning Christian in its own eyes and those of their more "mainline" Christian neighbours. That such a denomination would be nontrinitarian and iconoclastic is almost a given, but no need to draw inspiration from Islam for that. What else? Could it go as far as viewing Muhammad as a renewer of Christianity, whose message was misunderstood and deformed by Muslims (somewhat mirroring the traditional Muslim view on Jesus)?

Of course, one can also imagine cultural borrowings from Islamic societies (why not even imagine Christian muezzins?), but such things seem more likely to occur in the context of direct and prolonged interaction between Christian and Muslim populations rather than in the context of the Reformation.

 

[Byzantion]

What if Henry VIII. converts to Islam instead of founding the Anglican Church ?

 

[Hvalrossen]

You mean uninteresting from a European perspective. But what if becoming Muslim allowed them greater access to eastern trade?

I can imagine that some people of European and Christian descent could convert to Islam to some extent motivated by monetary interests. However, I think that their faith would be shallow, and thus not be able to last a long time in a Christian environment, hostile or otherwise. Additionally, I imagine that any such materialist converts would be people who had left the Christian kingdoms of Europe for states ruled by Muslims. Let's say Italian traders in Egypt.

Poland-Lithuania didn't have the Reformation (they were Catholic and strongly so - the only Protestant king, Louis Valois, was made to sign special articles that promised Protestantism would never be introduced)
The Tatars were a minority so small it didn't bear mentioning (And again, see above)

The Tatars also did not have a Christian background, and also moved to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth as Muslims. They did not convert to Islam while in the Christian state as this thread asked for.

I actually had the same idea this morning, before I read your post.

The question then would be what theological inspiration such a group could find in Islam while remeaning Christian in its own eyes and those of their more "mainline" Christian neighbours. That such a denomination would be nontrinitarian and iconoclastic is almost a given, but no need to draw inspiration from Islam for that. What else? Could it go as far as viewing Muhammad as a renewer of Christianity, whose message was misunderstood and deformed by Muslims (somewhat mirroring the traditional Muslim view on Jesus)?

Of course, one can also imagine cultural borrowings from Islamic societies (why not even imagine Christian muezzins?), but such things seem more likely to occur in the context of direct and prolonged interaction between Christian and Muslim populations rather than in the context of the Reformation.

I imagine that such a community would face a backlash from the Christian government and surrounding population. Who would look down on these heretics. This backlash could destroy the community as members are killed or revert. It could also strengthen the communal identity around this new self-identifying Muslim movement. However, in the long run, if this community is going to thrive it would have to migrate to a more tolerant environment. Whether that is a isolated area, a more tolerant Christian state or into a Muslim state like the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Fulano]

The problem with Islam is that it’s not very interesting from a Christian perspective.

Let alone the "interesting" part, I just simply can't conceive a Northern European Kingdom willingly accepting to ban beer, pork, seafood, and other kind of foods they usually ate just for adopting a new religion.

 

[Euphemios]

seafood,

Just for your information, three out of the four schools in Sunnism consider everything from the sea permissible.

 

[Jürgen]

Let alone the "interesting" part, I just simply can't conceive a Northern European Kingdom willingly accepting to ban beer, pork, seafood, and other kind of foods they usually ate just for adopting a new religion.

I could, but the problem is that Judaism or some kind of Judaizing Christian sect (Christians who uphold the sabbath, embrace kosher rules etc.) would be a more obvious choice, the problem with Islam is that theological it’s not really that interesting for Christians. There’s a reason why Christians pretty much only converted to Islam on large scale when living under Islamic rule.