Confederate colonialism?

I was thinking to myself about the too-often mentioned idea of the Confederacy winning the US Civil War today, and I wondered if it would be possible for them to have a colonial empire. Clearly, the CSA had racist tendencies; if they had the power and independence, would they attempt to spread the "superior ideals" of the white race? Would, or could, the CSA be involved in the Scramble for Africa? Would the Spanish-American war of OTL become the Spanish-Confederate war, and would the Philippines end up in Confederate hands? Is any of this possible?
 
I was thinking to myself about the too-often mentioned idea of the Confederacy winning the US Civil War today, and I wondered if it would be possible for them to have a colonial empire. Clearly, the CSA had racist tendencies; if they had the power and independence, would they attempt to spread the "superior ideals" of the white race? Would, or could, the CSA be involved in the Scramble for Africa? Would the Spanish-American war of OTL become the Spanish-Confederate war, and would the Philippines end up in Confederate hands? Is any of this possible?
Nope. Not at all.
 
Not really, they would have the desire but not the ability. The CSA would almost certainly wind up as a banana republic that is begging for funds!
 
I'd say it all depends on how long the war took, if it was a near immediate victory, or a peaceful succession occurred, I'd say it would be possible that we could see some Confederate colonialism, but not likely.
If we're talking a late victory, I'd say the ordeals of reconstruction, and unwillingness to go to war again would stop any idea of colonialism in it's tracks.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
They do not have the ability to maintain African colonies. The best that the CSA can hope for is some ill-fated adventurism/filibustering in Latin America.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
I was thinking to myself about the too-often mentioned idea of the Confederacy winning the US Civil War today, and I wondered if it would be possible for them to have a colonial empire. Clearly, the CSA had racist tendencies; if they had the power and independence, would they attempt to spread the "superior ideals" of the white race? Would, or could, the CSA be involved in the Scramble for Africa? Would the Spanish-American war of OTL become the Spanish-Confederate war, and would the Philippines end up in Confederate hands? Is any of this possible?
Both north and south were racist by todays standards, but the racism was different. If anything the north was worse in the desire to have a pure white anglo-saxon protestant society.

If the CSA doesn't get southern California then it will annex northern Mexico to give it a Pacific port and a western terminus for the Southern Pacific Railroad. This may bring it into conflict with France, as France had a notion of advancing the Mexican border northwards to regain "lost territories".

It is quite likely to come into conflict with Spain, and it will be a powerful nation, not the wishful thinking "banana republic" some here think. It may well annex Cuba and the Phillippines. It is unlikely to get involved in Africa. Remember the CSA constitution bans the slave trade (except from the US under some circumstances), so there is no question of slaving posts. Indeed the CSA will likely contribute to anti-slavery patrols as it is in her economic interest to do so.

A lot depends on the course the CSA (and USA) steers post independence. Remember the CSA is simply one vision of the old US.....
 
Both north and south were racist by todays standards, but the racism was different. If anything the north was worse in the desire to have a pure white anglo-saxon protestant society.

If the CSA doesn't get southern California then it will annex northern Mexico to give it a Pacific port and a western terminus for the Southern Pacific Railroad. This may bring it into conflict with France, as France had a notion of advancing the Mexican border northwards to regain "lost territories".

It is quite likely to come into conflict with Spain, and it will be a powerful nation, not the wishful thinking "banana republic" some here think. It may well annex Cuba and the Phillippines. It is unlikely to get involved in Africa. Remember the CSA constitution bans the slave trade (except from the US under some circumstances), so there is no question of slaving posts. Indeed the CSA will likely contribute to anti-slavery patrols as it is in her economic interest to do so.

A lot depends on the course the CSA (and USA) steers post independence. Remember the CSA is simply one vision of the old US.....
What? It was the CSA that made shooting blacks captured on the battlefield a requirement of the war, the ex-CSA's leader's who were the ones that tried to reimpose slavery with the serial numbers filed off, and it was the CSA that successfully created a pale ghost of slavery, all by sustained terrorism and massacre. How do you possibly get any idea that Northern racism was worse than Southern?
 
Abdul made a strong case the Confederacy would not be able to afford a substantial dreadnought fleet. He said a single dreadnought would cost about as much as the entire export revenues of the Confederate states in 1861.

($3.1 million in those days' dollars, IIRC.)

That eliminates Cuba and most definitely the Phillippines.

Them trying to nibble off bits of Mexico is more doable, although Mexico might be too much for them to handle. Maybe if they make some devil's bargain with Maximillian, to maintain him in power once the French leave?

(I think there were some northern Mexican political leaders who were interested in joining the Confederacy independent of Mexico, although it's been a long time since I found the article discussing that.)

That wouldn't be a colonial war though--it'd be territory-for-troops or territory-for-cash.
 
What? It was the CSA that made shooting blacks captured on the battlefield a requirement of the war, the ex-CSA's leader's who were the ones that tried to reimpose slavery with the serial numbers filed off, and it was the CSA that successfully created a pale ghost of slavery, all by sustained terrorism and massacre. How do you possibly get any idea that Northern racism was worse than Southern?
This is 67th Tigers so what do you expect? He likes rewriting history to suit himself. This is a guy who think Little Mac is a better general than US Grant! :rolleyes: The one who seems to think that one British soldier can beat a dozen US troops with his bare hands
 
This is 67th Tigers so what do you expect? He likes rewriting history to suit himself. This is a guy who think Little Mac is a better general than US Grant! :rolleyes: The one who seems to think that one British soldier can beat a dozen US troops with his bare hands
Eh, I don't think it's an exaggeration that a UK intervention in the US Civil War sees the UK kick ass and take names, but a great deal of that is because, well, the USA's in the middle of a civil war. It's like the British "success" in 1860 in China in the middle of the Taiping Rebellion.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Abdul made a strong case the Confederacy would not be able to afford a substantial dreadnought fleet. He said a single dreadnought would cost about as much as the entire export revenues of the Confederate states in 1861.

($3.1 million in those days' dollars, IIRC.)

That eliminates Cuba and most definitely the Phillippines.

Them trying to nibble off bits of Mexico is more doable, although Mexico might be too much for them to handle. Maybe if they make some devil's bargain with Maximillian, to maintain him in power once the French leave?

(I think there were some northern Mexican political leaders who were interested in joining the Confederacy independent of Mexico, although it's been a long time since I found the article discussing that.)

That wouldn't be a colonial war though--it'd be territory-for-troops or territory-for-cash.
In 1913 the US exported $576 m of cotton (up from ca. $250 m around the ACW). If the CSA is separated then, since the USA would have to import CS cotton this figure would be above $1,000 m per annum.

The USN acquired dreadnoughts for about $4 m fully armed and equipped.

If the CSA was to place the whole of one years cotton profits into Dreadnoughts they could build ~ 250 of them.

Cotton is the single largest sector of the US economy, even in 1913.
 
Eh, I don't think it's an exaggeration that a UK intervention in the US Civil War sees the UK kick ass and take names, but a great deal of that is because, well, the USA's in the middle of a civil war. It's like the British "success" in 1860 in China in the middle of the Taiping Rebellion.
I'm sure it will do a number on the US Army, just not to the exagerated extent he makes it out to be. The logistical situation would be a nightmare and British troops would be massively outnumbered.
 
I'm sure it will do a number on the US Army, just not to the exagerated extent he makes it out to be. The logistical situation would be a nightmare and British troops would be massively outnumbered.
The USA wouldn't be able to send an infinite number of troops against the UK, either.
 
The USA wouldn't be able to send an infinite number of troops against the UK, either.
True, but the numbers the Brits could send would be extremely limited. Maybe 50,000 trained troops, after that it is grass green troops that would be little more effective than the troops at Shiloh.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
If the CSA doesn't get southern California
Seeing as how the CSA could barely achieve power-projection into New Mexico (to say nothing of the overwhelming Unionist sentiment in California), I don't see Hell having a cold enough day to give the Confederacy California.

then it will annex northern Mexico to give it a Pacific port and a western terminus for the Southern Pacific Railroad.

It is quite likely to come into conflict with Spain, and it will be a powerful nation, not the wishful thinking "banana republic" some here think. It may well annex Cuba and the Phillippines.
The USA had enough trouble with both of these things IOTL. But no, I'm sure that the Confederacy's Grey-eyed Übermenschen will have no trouble accomplishing this with a fraction of the industry, resources, and manpower mustered IOTL :rolleyes:

Them trying to nibble off bits of Mexico is more doable, although Mexico might be too much for them to handle. Maybe if they make some devil's bargain with Maximillian, to maintain him in power once the French leave?

(I think there were some northern Mexican political leaders who were interested in joining the Confederacy independent of Mexico, although it's been a long time since I found the article discussing that.)
Treacherous local elites do not a successful invasion and occupation make (though they do help so long as they stay on the invaders' side). While the CSA might be able to power-project into the northeastern states of Mexico, they will be facing a restive population, disease, and a logistical migraine-cum-nightmare.
 
Seeing as how the CSA could barely achieve power-projection into New Mexico (to say nothing of the overwhelming Unionist sentiment in California), I don't see Hell having a cold enough day to give the Confederacy California.

The USA had enough trouble with both of these things IOTL. But no, I'm sure that the Confederacy's Grey-eyed Übermenschen will have no trouble accomplishing this with a fraction of the industry, resources, and manpower mustered IOTL :rolleyes:

Treacherous local elites do not a successful invasion and occupation make (though they do help so long as they stay on the invaders' side). While the CSA might be able to power-project into the northeastern states of Mexico, they will be facing a restive population, disease, and a logistical migraine-cum-nightmare.
Yeah. they got their butts kicked in AZ fairly badly didn't they? No way in Hell are they taking AZ not talking CA.

Yes, the élan of the CSA military conquers all! No doubt they will add all of Latin America to their mighty empire!!! :rolleyes:

With the North no doubt taking advantage of the opportunity to invade the CSA. The number of troops they will need to keep an eye the US will preclude them from doing much.
 
You heard it here first, folks, thinking the Confederacy won't take over northern Mexico, Cuba, and the Philippines is wishful thinking.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
You heard it here first, folks, thinking the Confederacy won't take over northern Mexico, Cuba, and the Philippines is wishful thinking.
For who can hope to stand in the way of the White Man's Inexorable March to Glory?
 
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