Civilization without writing?

the Muslims would like a word with you. and the Jews are in line for after Islam's through with you.

(and after them, people who enjoy the works of Homer)

Most Muslims in this part of the world DON'T understand what they have painstakingly memorized by rote. Fun fact about the Taliban! Lots of people can rattle off the Classical Arabic text of the Quran without the faintest clue what it is they are saying. They could be reciting Mohammed's laundry list for all they know. But their pronunciation is, so I've heard, frequently excellent. That's how we get a lot of quaint local customs that are not actually in the Koran but their practicioners claim Quranic sanction.

And really, the Jews have no place in this discussion because they are definitely a literate society. Have been for millenia. Consistently higher levels of formal education than the people around them.

And no one outside of a tiny, tiny handful of professors enjoys the works of Homer in Attic Greek, never mind the language it was originally performed in.
 
Most Muslims in this part of the world DON'T understand what they have painstakingly memorized by rote. Fun fact about the Taliban! Lots of people can rattle off the Classical Arabic text of the Quran without the faintest clue what it is they are saying. They could be reciting Mohammed's laundry list for all they know. But their pronunciation is, so I've heard, frequently excellent. That's how we get a lot of quaint local customs that are not actually in the Koran but their practicioners claim Quranic sanction.

This also perfectly explains their behaviour. :eek:

And really, the Jews have no place in this discussion because they are definitely a literate society. Have been for millenia. Consistently higher levels of formal education than the people around them.

The survival of the Hebrew language itself is a testament to the literacy of Jewish society.

And no one outside of a tiny, tiny handful of professors enjoys the works of Homer in Attic Greek, never mind the language it was originally performed in.

The interesting part there that the Greeks made the transition from a literate society to an iliterate society to a literate society. Specifically, Bronze Age-era Greek was written in the Linear B script, which became extinct in the wake of the Bronze Age collapse. The Greek alphabet was only developed way later (out of the Phoenician one).
 
Fascinating stuff Leo. Though I'm also curious how any society larger then tribe/clan level would work without writing in regards to administration. Issuing orders or decrees would result in Chinese Whispers.
 
Hi Leo, very interesting.

One question, though: complex, abstract religion seems to be possible without writing. For example, the Vedas and early Buddhism were transmitted (and I assume created) by oral tradition up to the 1st century BC (Wiki dixit). How it is possible to affirm that non-concrete thought needs writing, then? And if this is possible in religion, why not in other areas?

But on the other hand, I was a university professor for a while and I got struck by the obvious difference between literate freshmen and literate-in-name-only-freshmen (that is, people that of course knew how to read and write but never ever opened a book unless under pain of a test!) The abstraction gap was HUGE. Yet the latter could invent Buddhism, then? Or something else is missing, not related to writing at all?
 
I was a university professor for a while and I got struck by the obvious difference between literate freshmen and literate-in-name-only-freshmen (that is, people that of course knew how to read and write but never ever opened a book unless under pain of a test!) The abstraction gap was HUGE. Yet the latter could invent Buddhism, then? Or something else is missing, not related to writing at all?

Hopefully Leo has something he can point to, but to speculate:

A gap like that might still exist in the event of that whole sample being truly illiterate given differences in intelligence and language skills, just expressed in a different context. Some people will be better at abstraction than others, even within illiterate groups.
 
Hopefully Leo has something he can point to, but to speculate:

A gap like that might still exist in the event of that whole sample being truly illiterate given differences in intelligence and language skills, just expressed in a different context. Some people will be better at abstraction than others, even within illiterate groups.

More speculation:

What if the actual existence of a literacy in the civilization has an effect on the minds of the illiterate in that same civilization. The illiterate may not need to do any abstract thinking, because they have literate class in their society who take care of that. In fact, they may have learned a behavior which prevents them from acting and thinking like the literate class because it's gotten them into trouble in the past.

This translates well to the College student (in the U.S., at least) who is a member of a subculture that finds intelligence to be unfashionable.

In a civilization where no one is literate, of which we have very few, if any, examples to study in our modern world, things may not work the same way.
 

Keenir

Banned
Fascinating stuff Leo. Though I'm also curious how any society larger then tribe/clan level would work without writing in regards to administration.

pictures.

Most Muslims in this part of the world DON'T understand what they have painstakingly memorized by rote.

And really, the Jews have no place in this discussion because they are definitely a literate society. Have been for millenia. Consistently higher levels of formal education than the people around them.

And no one outside of a tiny, tiny handful of professors enjoys the works of Homer in Attic Greek, never mind the language it was originally performed in.

you missed the point three times. you surprised me in that way.

all three of them had books (respectively the Quran, the Torah, and The Iliad) which were relayed for multiple generations orally.

and all three survived.
 
pictures.



you missed the point three times. you surprised me in that way.

all three of them had books (respectively the Quran, the Torah, and The Iliad) which were relayed for multiple generations orally.

and all three survived.
The Iliad and Torah were relayed for multiple generations orally, and changed considerably over a period of centuries.

The Iliad, written down c. 700 BC, was based on real events c. 1100 BC.

The Quran was written down soon after it was 'revealed'.
 
A lot of research has been conducted over the years on the differences in modes of thought between literates and the unlettered, and the results seem to suggest that literacy affects cognition in a profound way. I've brought this up here before, so it will be old to a few people here, but I though I might as well mention it again.

Preliterate or non-literate cultures conceive of the world around them in very different ways than literate cultures. This area of psycholinguistics is known as "operational thinking;" as a reference, the foundation work was done by A.R. Luria in Uzbekistan (Cognitive Development: Its Cultural and Social Foundations, 1976). In a nutshell, Luria discovered that illiterate Uzbeks perceived the world differently from literate or even semiliterate ones.

Among Luria's findings (which have since been shown to be fairly universal):

  • Illiterate subjects identified geometric figures by assigning them the names of objects, never abstractions; e.g. a circle would be called a "plate," a square would be called an "apricot drying board," etc.
  • When asked to group objects ("which one of these is not like the others"), illiterate subjects were incapable of thinking in categorical terms. For example, given a series of drawings of a hammer, a saw, a log, and a hatchet, and asked to group three of them, you would probably discard the log on the grounds that the other three are tools; almost all of Luria's subjects eliminated the hammer, on the grounds that it couldn't cut the log as well as the saw or the hatchet. When told that the hammer was a "tool" like the other two, they responded that these "tools" were useless without the wood to work upon; you see, they were not accustomed to thinking in terms of abstract categories but rather in terms of practical applications.
  • These Uzbeks were incapable of using deductive reasoning; formal logic being a product of writing cultures. That is to say, they were incapable of using syllogisms; when asked, "Gold is a precious metal. Precious metals do not rust. Does gold rust?" most of the Uzbeks responded, "How the Hell should I know?"
  • Nearly all of Luria's requests for concrete definitions met with stiff resistance. "Why should I have to define 'tree,' everyone knows what a tree is!"
  • Illiterate subjects find articulate self-analysis to be incredibly difficult, as illiterates tend to think in terms of situational or operational thinking, and self-analysis requires the demolition of this type of thinking, to a certain extent.
These are just a few of Luria's findings, but they are fairly typical for oral cultures. In short, oral minds tend to be aggregative rather than analytic, and participatory rather than objectively distanced. Any "civilization" that develops within this parameters is bound to be very different from our own concepts of civilization, which are not only informed by literacy, but to some extent depend on it as well.

On top of this, oral societies tend to be homeostatic... that is to say, illiterates live in a kind of perpetual present that survives by acquiring and jettisoning vocabulary as they see fit, subconsciously of course. A farmer of this era might be able to attribute a proper name to every plant or weed in a field, including many names that would be unidentifiable to you, but other semantic categories would tend to be encompassed by specific terms used for broad categories ("thistle" might mean "unedible plant"; "boar" might mean "wild animal"). Any attempt to use abstractions with an illiterate peasant will inevitably face serious opposition. You're better off using concrete terms, so long as you know what precise concrete terms to use (and there's the rub).

Imagine explaining a car to someone who only had experience with horses and such. That should give you some small idea of the difficulties inherent in communicating with someone who speaks the same language but with an oral worldview. Or, put yourself in their shoes, and try to explain what a spiral is without resorting to using your hands; unless you're a mathematician, this should be pretty difficult for you.

For these reasons, I am skeptical that the sort of linear progress that "civilization" entails could arise in a non-literate society.

Very interesting. I recall vaguely hearing about studies regarding the effect that literacy and language can have on the way that the brain functions, but I'd never heard of these findings before. Do you by any chance know of any other material on this specific area? I'm definitely going to try to see if I can find this study you mentioned when I'm done with the semester, as it looks like very interesting reading.
 
the Muslims would like a word with you. and the Jews are in line for after Islam's through with you.

(and after them, people who enjoy the works of Homer)

I was thinking of them too. The muslims were/are famous for memorizing and then repeating (oftyen without understanding the arabic words that they are saying) but they are memorizing things FROM A BOOK that people can then check later to see if they have memorized correctly.

In Islam if a cleric had memorized incorrectly and then misquoted the Koran then he may get into a little trouble.
 

Keenir

Banned
I was thinking of them too. The muslims were/are famous for memorizing and then repeating (oftyen without understanding the arabic words that they are saying) but they are memorizing things FROM A BOOK that people can then check later to see if they have memorized correctly.

in the lifetime of The Prophet (pbuh), there were people in his community whose job it was to commit to memory and recite things.
 
Leo quoted:
"Illiterate subjects identified geometric figures by assigning them the names of objects, never abstractions; e.g. a circle would be called a "plate," a square would be called an "apricot drying board," etc. "
. . .
For these reasons, I am skeptical that the sort of linear progress that "civilization" entails could arise in a non-literate society.
Interesting result. But, then, why are preliterate cultures often full of stories, usually about gods and goddesses? And, aren't said gods often abstractions in and of themselves?

And, weren't preliterates able to, all over the earth, think up farming, the wheel, and even reading and writing and alphabets?

Like Swan, I think Luria might be seeing a different effect - illiterates today being likelier to be those who've identified themselves as nonthinkers uninterested in stories.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
well, the OP was for "No Writing."

so we can still have illustrations showing us how to assemble something.

It was an analogy Keenir. I was pointing out a basic trend involving neighboring civilizations and arguing that the trend itself would still be functional regardless of whether people are writing.

If I'd avoided situations involving writing in making my analogies, I'd perforce have been limited to making only reference to tribal or Peruvian peoples. Pursuant to the goals of the OP, that wasn't practical, as only the Eurasian peoples could achieve what was asked. [By the time the Incas got halfway, someone would have shown up from elsewhere and repeated the squishing noises of OTL.]

I don't think we can avoid talking about cultures that had writing as examples, not given the topic matter here. All we can hope to do is differentiate what they could do with or without the written word.
 
Leo quoted:
Interesting result. But, then, why are preliterate cultures often full of stories, usually about gods and goddesses? And, aren't said gods often abstractions in and of themselves?

The Gods are actually personifications, not abstractions. I could be wrong, but I think you get abstract dieties with literate cultures.

Zeus is one type of diety which can be conceived by an unlettered farmer, the "Unmoved Mover" of the literate Aristotle another quite different.
 
pictures.

you missed the point three times. you surprised me in that way.

all three of them had books (respectively the Quran, the Torah, and The Iliad) which were relayed for multiple generations orally.

and all three survived.

The Illiad changed while it was in an oral form, adapting to the language of the audiences. It wasn't until it was written down that it fixed its form.

About the Torah, my understanding is that it was written down fairly early--but that area of history is not really my forte.

But you're wrong re: the Quran -- that was written down while people who were 'companions of the prophet' were still alive. Single generation. In fact, at least parts of it were written down while Mohammad was alive.
 

Keenir

Banned
It was an analogy Keenir.

sorry.

[By the time the Incas got halfway, someone would have shown up from elsewhere and repeated the squishing noises of OTL.]

as G'kar once said "and they made a very satisfying thump."

I don't think we can avoid talking about cultures that had writing as examples, not given the topic matter here. All we can hope to do is differentiate what they could do with or without the written word.

very true.
 

Keenir

Banned
But you're wrong re: the Quran -- that was written down while people who were 'companions of the prophet' were still alive. Single generation. In fact, at least parts of it were written down while Mohammad was alive.

my point was that the profession already existed when the Prophet (pbuh) was a toddler.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
sorry.

as G'kar once said "and they made a very satisfying thump."

very true.

No worries. Just as long as we're on the same page 'n' all. Hope my reply didn't come off snarky.

And yeah, sometimes I've imagined talking to one of those first settlers, coming over the land bridge when Egypt was still hunter-gatherer territory and Japan all Ainu.... explaining just how much living on that side was going to suck for their descendants.
 

Keenir

Banned
No worries. Just as long as we're on the same page 'n' all. Hope my reply didn't come off snarky.

i detected no snark.

And yeah, sometimes I've imagined talking to one of those first settlers, coming over the land bridge when Egypt was still hunter-gatherer territory and Japan all Ainu.... explaining just how much living on that side was going to suck for their descendants.

I don't envy you for trying to find the words to explain it.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Alright, I've had a day or so (a very hectic day) to digest some of the responses, and I'd like to clarify some of my thoughts on the matter.

To start, I do not wish in any way to trivialize the intellectual accomplishments of preliterate cultures. Preliterate folk mastered the use of energy to transform the chemical structure of substances like rock and clay to produce stone tools and pottery. This sort of heat treatment is a fundamental step (in a long series) towards modern chemistry. Preliterate folk also laid the groundwork for modern medicine (by amassing an immense oral pharmacopoeia of substances occurring in nature, and by pioneering feats of surgery like trepanation). They also provided the foundation for navigational systems through their observations of the heavens, which not only allowed them to isolate their location in geographic space but also allowed them to mark the passage of time. All of these things were discovered long before the dawn of recorded history.

But they did not (and do not) reckon the passage of time in the same way that literate folk do. Premodern and preliterate societies often have a cyclical conception of time against our linear conception. This is the basis for astrology -- the stars can determine the fates of mankind simply because what has happened before will happen again, in an eternal never-ending cycle. That is precisely what people mean when they say that "the stars are in alignment" for a given event; they are depending upon past experience to predict the future, which makes little sense from a linear perspective, but complete sense from a cyclical one.

Remember what I said about the "homeostatic present" of illiterate folk. Illiterates live in a kind of perpetual present that survives by acquiring and jettisoning vocabulary as they see fit. This is largely because there are cognitive limits to the amount of vocabulary that an individual can control, and when there is no written language, the conceptual boundaries of a language are limited by the vocabulary of its living speakers. The Oxford English Dictionary contains 301,100 main entries, for example; it is unthinkable for a single person to master more than a tiny fraction of those entries (let alone use them productively), which obviously limits his ability to retain and transmit information accurately. Bear also in mind that the energy required to retain and accurately transmit information orally is staggering (imagine being forced to compose a timeline without reference to Wikipedia or any books, and you'll get an idea of the task facing a preliterate savant). As knowledge in an oral culture tends to disappear unless it is frequently repeated, oral cultures must invest great energy in repeating knowledge that has been acquired over the ages over and over again. As a corollary, oral compositions are always directed towards a particular audience, as it would be pointless to deliver them while alone. This need encourages and even demands a highly traditionalist or conservative mindset that shuns intellectual experimentation, and for good reason. I do not intend to suggest that oral cultures are bereft of creativity or originality, but merely that this creativity consists chiefly of variations upon established themes.

Also, knowledge is rarely presented in the abstract, but almost always in reference to situations derived from the human experience. This brings me to another issue that some of you brought up: that of religion. "Religion," in its most basic sense, essentially entails a system of beliefs surrounding mankind's relationship with the supernatural. This relationship is derived from the human experience, and is expressed largely in terms of metaphors (which are a universal way for mankind to make sense out of something, by expressing it through analogy to something else). In this light, religions arise precisely because of the need to make sense of abstractions by expressing them through references to the concrete. That is why so many preliterate societies have anthropomorphic gods who live more or less like humans do, with the same needs and behavior, and describe invisible phenomena (such as disease) through metaphors (divine wrath in the form of poison arrows, or magic spread through the principles of similarity or contagion).

Could complex systems of belief have arisen in an oral society? Well, yes and no. Bear in mind that Buddhism (to give one example) did not spring fully grown like Athena from the head of Zeus. The Buddhism(s) with which we are familiar today is (are) very much the product of millennia of literacy, and is (are) very much a product (products) of the cultures and civilizations which have nourished it (them). Likewise, it is clear that in the case of Judaism and Christianity that the religions in the book are not exactly the same as the religions of the book. They may be connected through lineage, but that lineage is extremely attenuated, and it is precisely the contact with literacy that has made Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and practically every other major religion what it is today. The early Judaisms and Christianities, before the emergence of writing and the canon, were very different from their contemporary manifestations.

Finally, some of you mentioned the Inca as a possible counterexample. I could have easily mentioned (in my own part of the world) the Uruk civilization, which covered a similarly large area and was distinguished by its own impressive accomplishments in many areas. The point I'd like to make here is that there is no sharp division between literacy and orality, but rather a spectrum of orality. Just as many of you have noticed that some people who are ostensibly a product of literate cultures think and behave in many respects like illiterate folk, so too does the literacy spectrum extend into illiteracy.

Writing is, essentially, an organized system employing symbols rather than speech for the purposes of communication. At its most basic state, there is a precise correspondence between the spoken word and the symbol or symbols used to represent it, such that anyone who is familiar with the language and has been trained in the "code" used to represent it will be able to read any written text. Nevertheless, writing has its own prehistory---artwork such as the cave paintings from Lascaux represents a clear attempt to render information symbolically in the absence of written language. I can easily imagine some palaeolithic bard illustrating the tale of a great hunt or war between rival tribes through reference to the paintings, but unfortunately these tales have been lost to us.

Likewise, notched sticks and stones found throughout prehistoric sites likely represent another kind of effort to retain information by representing it symbolically. What do they represent? The passage of days? The number of animals killed? Unfortunately, without the creator to "decode" the message for us, we will never know. That is what separates this "proto-writing" from writing proper.

Uruk had a similar form of proto-writing: small clay tokens, each representing something (a head of sheep, a barrel of grain, a jar of olive oil) which were then embedded in a clay envelope. These envelopes were then stamped by the owner of the goods to ensure that his tokens were not tampered with. Eventually, it became necessary to check the contents of the envelope without breaking it open (say, for example, for the purpose of levying duties, or transshipments of the goods to further destinations), and so representations of the tokens were impressed upon the surface of the clay envelope. This developed rather organically into the cuneiform writing which characterized the region after Uruk.

Likewise, it is almost certain that the Incan quipus, the Vinča "script," and the Indus valley "script" were all forms of proto-writing, if not legitimate writing systems of their own. Unfortunately we do not know whether it is possible to decipher them or not; if they represent proto-writing, then it will be impossible to decipher them, but if they represent writing, it should be theoretically possible to decipher them, especially if we have access to the language of their creators. That is why I would not classify proto-literate societies like Uruk, the Inca, or the Indus valley in the same category as pre-literate societies, if indeed they were proto-literate and not simply literate, as some people might suggest.
 
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