Civilization without writing?

Maur

Banned
Well, I wasn't arguing that a cyclical perception of time was dependent upon literacy; quite the opposite. I was merely suggesting that preliterate societies often have a cyclical perception of time, for the reasons you've mentioned. On the flip side, though, I have to wonder whether a linear perception of time (and with it, a concept of linear progress and perhaps even an end to time) is possible at all without written records. That's more or less what I was getting at.
Hm, i thought that's what i said too, so there must be some misunderstanding. (or mistyping).

If the seasonal theory is right, we would need people not dependent on it who aren't literate either. In practice it'd be harder to see, as i guess there would be a lag in the change, but still, a agricultural center with some specialization after a few generations would be a place to look.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Hm, i thought that's what i said too, so there must be some misunderstanding. (or mistyping).
Absolutely, I agree with you, but when you said that it might be artifact to interpret it as dependent on literacy, I was wondering who you were attributing this artifact to.

If the seasonal theory is right, we would need people not dependent on it who aren't literate either. In practice it'd be harder to see, as i guess there would be a lag in the change, but still, a agricultural center with some specialization after a few generations would be a place to look.
It'd be fairly easy to disprove my hypothesis; all it would need is a traditional, non-literate culture who views the progression of time as linear rather than cyclical. Frankly, I wouldn't be terribly surprised to discover that such exist, but I can't say that I've ever heard of one... yet.
 

Maur

Banned
Absolutely, I agree with you, but when you said that it might be artifact to interpret it as dependent on literacy, I was wondering who you were attributing this artifact to.

It'd be fairly easy to disprove my hypothesis; all it would need is a traditional, non-literate culture who views the progression of time as linear rather than cyclical. Frankly, I wouldn't be terribly surprised to discover that such exist, but I can't say that I've ever heard of one... yet.
I don't remember actually. I was probably commenting on the statement about non-literacy meaning cyclical perception of time.

Well, theoretically easy, but i am not sure if there are that many cultures that are a) not dependent on seasons for few generations b) still not literate.

They could have been more prevalent 5000 years ago, but i suppose by the virtue of not being literate they don't leave many clues about their perception of time...
 

elder.wyrm

Banned
Civilization without writing?

Yes, civilization historically arose without the use of full on symbolic representation.

Civilization without writing for long?

No. A division of labor more complex than, "Peasant, lord, priest", requires record keeping of some kind. A civilization without writing, when it hits a certain point, will develop it.
 

Keenir

Banned
Civilization without writing?

Yes, civilization historically arose without the use of full on symbolic representation.

Civilization without writing for long?

No. A division of labor more complex than, "Peasant, lord, priest", requires record keeping of some kind. A civilization without writing, when it hits a certain point, will develop it.

mmmm....not so sure about that. surely some indigenous groups demonstrate that civilizations can do perfectly well with pictographs and no script.
 
mmmm....not so sure about that. surely some indigenous groups demonstrate that civilizations can do perfectly well with pictographs and no script.
Name 3. Remember that Mesoamericans have writing, and we have no clue what the Mound Builders did, or the Amazon civilization.

CIVIlization, by definition, involves cities. Functionally, it involves a hierarchical society (or at least one with well defined separate professions/roles).

The very use of the term 'indigenous group' strongly implies they don't have civilization. Culture? sure. Civilization, per se, no.
 
It'd be fairly easy to disprove my hypothesis; all it would need is a traditional, non-literate culture who views the progression of time as linear rather than cyclical. Frankly, I wouldn't be terribly surprised to discover that such exist, but I can't say that I've ever heard of one... yet.

Proto-Germanics? Odinism is quite linear in mindset, encompassing both a creation of the world and a coming apocalypse. Of course, we have no way of knowing that that developed before the runic script.

If it did develop after it must have done so rapidly following the introduction of writing. At the least rapidly in terms of polytheist religions. It would also beg the question of why we never heard of a religious figure or movement that introduced the idea of Ragnarok.
 

Keenir

Banned

do the Native Australians qualify as one or as hundreds?

in addition, Google brings up Nevada's http://media.photobucket.com/image/...atel%20glyph%20valleyoffire%20nv/SANY0034.jpg

also the Maori and Hawaiians.

CIVIlization, by definition, involves cities. Functionally, it involves a hierarchical society (or at least one with well defined separate professions/roles).

Maori, Hawaiians, again.

The very use of the term 'indigenous group' strongly implies they don't have civilization. Culture? sure. Civilization, per se, no.

no, it just distinguishes the preceeding inhabitants from others. I was born in the US, so technically I am a Native American...but I'm not part of any Native American tribes.
 
do the Native Australians qualify as one or as hundreds?

in addition, Google brings up Nevada's http://media.photobucket.com/image/...atel%20glyph%20valleyoffire%20nv/SANY0034.jpg

also the Maori and Hawaiians.



Maori, Hawaiians, again.



no, it just distinguishes the preceeding inhabitants from others. I was born in the US, so technically I am a Native American...but I'm not part of any Native American tribes.
I think you would find that Maori, Hawaiians and all Australian groups don't qualify as 'civilizations' in the usage here.

Does anyone label the Welsh as 'an indigenous group'? I think not.
 
Stuff the preservation of knowledge!
you need writing to have a decent trade system (inventaries and so on)
that's what the first clay tables having cuneiform types were for
 
very well - Polynesian/Austronesian civilization. is that a better term for you?

Not me. To be a civilization in the classic cultural evolutionary sense, a society/culture needs to be characterized by urbanism, intensive agriculture supporting high population centers, heirarchical state-level socio-political organization, and a viable writing/record keeping system. I would argue that Polynesian states come close, but are not true civilizations.

they do

Yes, unfortunately "indigenous peoples" has become a buzz word allowing all sorts of people to claim "indigenous" status in parts of the world even though they themselves almost certainly displaced somebody else previosuly.
 
Yes, unfortunately "indigenous peoples" has become a buzz word allowing all sorts of people to claim "indigenous" status in parts of the world even though they themselves almost certainly displaced somebody else previously.

It's a pretty slippery term, since there are very few inhabited areas on Earth that haven't changed hands in the past. Iceland, maybe.
 
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