Chonky Switzerland Post WW2

[LuckyLuciano]

After reading the thread on what if Germany invaded Switzerland during WW2, I have a second question to posit!

Assuming that France would occupy post war Switzerland...
What if France, because of conflict with the USA and Britain over unifying occupation zones, decides to screw both of them and create their own South German state to weaken any future unified Germany? This South Germany/Greater Switzerland would be comprised of the French Baden Wurttemberg, Switzerland and Tyrol.

Some Questions:
Would France be able to integrate the Saarland and potentially even Rhineland-Palatinate, or at least render them eternal puppets?
Would Austria still be unified without Tyrol, or would it be split into East and West Austria? Perhaps even the West half being integrated into a unified Germany.
And would the British and American zones still unify? How would this shrunken West Germany function and develop? Especially with the new state to it's south.

 

[Colonel Zoidberg]

The million-dollar question is if Switzerland would go along with it. For that matter, what’s France’s end game here besides a weakened Germany? A separate German state a la East Germany? That probably reunites in 1990 or so. If it becomes part of Switzerland, they had better become a lot more Swiss - and not impede Switzerland’s strategic position.

 

[Nebogipfel]

Some Questions:
Would France be able to integrate the Saarland and potentially even Rhineland-Palatinate, or at least render them eternal puppets?
Would Austria still be unified without Tyrol, or would it be split into East and West Austria? Perhaps even the West half being integrated into a unified Germany.

What would happen with the Swiss part of Germany/Austria - would the people be expelled like east of the Oder, or expected to become citizen of the new Super-Switzerland?
The latter case would mean that the Swiss would suddenly more than double its population - with the new citizen being the very recent invaders/occupying force. Somehow I don't think that becoming a minority would go down very well among the Swiss. Also, the German-speaking Swiss are already in the majority, after such a move they would completely dominate everything. The other case, expelling the people would create a huge political problem - German revanchionism not only against Poland/Soviet Union, but also against France/Switzerland. Apart from tha fact that Switzerland was not that overpopulated, who would settle in the new northern Kantons?

 

[The Ranger]

I thought when I saw the title that this was some sort of timeline where Chinese people were allowed to immigrate into Switzerland, and by giving it such a title, it would get the OP banned or at least kicked for racism.

 

[Neoteros]

Not likely; the Allies could try to lessen the influence of the German Swiss (if Switzerland is annexed by the Reich, and if a vocal minority of German Swiss gets on board) by granting several non-German (Fascist Italian and Vichy French) border territories to Switzerland however or, at least, that's how I'd do it.

Turning the OTL Province of Sondrio into a new Swiss canton, or adding it to the Grisons, would be a no-brainer, as the region had been under the Grisons until Napoleon, and had tried to become a fourth League alongside the other three leagues of the Grisons shortly before the French Revolution. In case the Allies want to go for the overkill, they could throw the Three Parishes into the mix, and elevate the former Grisons domains of the aforementioned Three Parishes, Bormio, Chiavenna and Valtellina into separate cantons.

From France, the Allies could turn the Chablais and Faucigny into cantons, as both had been Swiss once, and had tried to rejoin Switzerland in 1860, after Savoy was ceded to France by Piedmont.

 

[LuckyLuciano]

Not likely; the Allies could try to lessen the influence of the German Swiss (if Switzerland is annexed by the Reich, and if a vocal minority of German Swiss gets on board) by granting several non-German (Fascist Italian and Vichy French) border territories to Switzerland however or, at least, that's how I'd do it.

Turning the OTL Province of Sondrio into a new Swiss canton, or adding it to the Grisons, would be a no-brainer, as the region had been under the Grisons until Napoleon, and had tried to become a fourth League alongside the other three leagues of the Grisons shortly before the French Revolution. In case the Allies want to go for the overkill, they could throw the Three Parishes into the mix, and elevate the former Grisons domains of the aforementioned Three Parishes, Bormio, Chiavenna and Valtellina into separate cantons.

From France, the Allies could turn the Chablais and Faucigny into cantons, as both had been Swiss once, and had tried to rejoin Switzerland in 1860, after Savoy was ceded to France by Piedmont.

Wouldnt it be more likely that France would carve the French territories off of Switzerland then give them more? And you can also assume that Italy would have absorbed its minorities in Switzerland and kept those territories post war. I havent illustrated that in the map I made, mostly because i dont know how to use paint, but the remainder would be almost entirely German and so my rational would be that France would rather weld them to its other occupations zones and have a south german puppet under its heel that even if it strayed from France could assert its independence then a small German dominated swiss nation under its thumb which would inevitably fall under a larger fully unified german orbit or even be absorbed entirely by it.

 

[LuckyLuciano]

I thought when I saw the title that this was some sort of timeline where Chinese people were allowed to immigrate into Switzerland, and by giving it such a title, it would get the OP banned or at least kicked for racism.

how even…

 

[David T]

Where the hell did this French superpower that could defy all the other Allies come from? Surely one of the first things the Allies would agree on is that Switzerland's independence and neutrality should be restored as soon as possible. It had after all been a fixture of European politics since 1815.

You might say that the Allies had also agreed that Austria should resume its independence and neutrality, yet that wasn't fully accomplished until 1955. The obvious answer is that the Soviet Union was rather more powerful than France...

 

[David T]

The million-dollar question is if Switzerland would go along with it.

Of course not. The Swiss--whether German- or French- or Italian- or Romansh-speaking--would simply want the restoration of their independence and neutraility. The Allies would also want this except the France the OP posits--which, apart from wanting things no serious French political party in OTL advocated, is somehow strong enough to defy all the other Allies...

 

[Alanith]

Any such French attempt is liable to fail before 1990. The Swiss will want no part of it, and refuse to take part. And unlike the Soviet Union, France is a bit unable to unilaterally invade its German statelet when the government decides that it's intention is to pursue the wishes of its populace and seek reunion with West Germany. And is unable to argue against democratic self determination without reeking of being a hypocrite.

 

[LuckyLuciano]

Of course not. The Swiss--whether German- or French- or Italian- or Romansh-speaking--would simply want the restoration of their independence and neutraility. The Allies would also want this except the Francee the OP posits which apart from wanting things no serious French political party in OTL advocated is somehow strong enough to defy all the other Allies...

How powerful were the French in their administration of their zones? were the mostly reliant on the other allies? I know next to nothing about this period but had assumed they had at least military and civilian control over their occupied zones?

 

[David T]

How powerful were the French in their administration of their zones? were the mostly reliant on the other allies? I know next to nothing about this period but had assumed they had at least military and civilian control over their occupied zones?

You're suggesting that Switzerland will be treated as part of Germany, which makes no sense--even Austria was not so treated even though Austria (unlike Switzerland) had plenty of Nazis and even non-Nazis who were happy to go Heim ins Reich. If Switzerland is invaded by Germany, it will no more be treated by the Allies as part of Germany than Belgium or the Netherlands were. With much greater justificaton than Austria, Switzerland will simply be seen as a victim of, not a paritcipnat in, Axis aggression.

And even with her occupaton zone in Germany, France cannot realistically resist its eventual integration with the other western occupation zones, let alone declare it independent. The USSR could transform its occupaton zone into a separate country because it was a superpower. France was far from being one and was heavily dependent on the US both for economic recovery (the Marshall Plan) and military defense against a potential Soviet threat .

 

[LuckyLuciano]

You're suggesting that Switzerland will be treated as part of Germany, which makes no sense--even Austria was not so treated even though Austria (unlike Switzerland) had plenty of Nazis and even non-Nazis who were happy to go Heim ins Reich. If Switzerland is invaded by Germany, it will no more be treated by the Allies as part of Germany than Belgium or the Netherlands were. With much greater justificaton than Austria, Switzerland will simply be seen as a victim of, not a paritcipnat in, Axis aggression.

And even with her occipaton zone in Germany, France cannot realistically resist its eventual integration with the other western occupation zones, let alone declare it independent. The USSR could transform its occupaton zone into a separate country because it was a superpower. France was far from being one and was heavily dependent on the US both for economic recovery (the Marshall Plan) and military defense against a potential Soviet threat .

werent there plans to divide Germany and Austria in similar fashions if not more atrocious like the Churchill plan?

 

[David T]

werent there plans to divide Germany and Austria in similar fashions if not more atrocious like the Churchill plan?

Depsite Churchill's fantasies about federations, it was always likely that Austria would be treated as an independent nation:

"In December 1941 Soviet premier Joseph Stalin informed the British that the U.S.S.R. would regard the restoration of an independent Austrian republic as an essential part of the postwar order in central Europe. In October 1943, at a meeting in Moscow of the foreign ministers of Great Britain, the U.S.S.R., and the United States, a declaration was published that declared the Anschluss null and void and pledged the Allies to restore Austrian independence; it also reminded the Austrians that they had to make an effort to rid themselves of the German yoke. Though the British prime minister, Winston Churchill, continued to make proposals for setting up a central European federation comprising the former Habsburg lands and even southern Germany, the European Advisory Commission in London assumed that Austria would return to sovereignty within the borders of 1937." https://www.britannica.com/place/Austria/Anschluss-and-World-War-II

But the point is that even if Austria were somehow to become part of some sort of Danubian federation, there would be no similar justification for Switzerland. Austria within its 1918-38 and post-1945 borders after all had once been part of a larger Danubian state for centruries; and it also had been part of the Holy Roman Empire and the German Confederation. Part of what made Switzerland unique was that it had been independent for centuries of both the Holy Roman Empire and the Habsburg Empire--even under Napoleon it was nominally independent though a French client state. If Switzerland were to have been invaded by Germany it would simply have been taken for granted by the Allies as well as the Swiss people that its independece must be restored just like that of, say, Balgium.

 

[Kalvan]

Switzerland will never take Franconia as Cantons due to country's delicate religious balance, especially not that much of Franconia due to how much that would put German-culture Catholics in the majority.

Maybe a smaller amount of border areas of Franconia if they also admit in a sufficient amount of certain North Central Italian territories, at least if they're willing to consider Albagensians Protestant...

 

[David T]

Switzerland will never take Franconia as Cantons due to country's delicate religious balance, especially not that much of Franconia due to how much that would put German-culture Catholics in the majority.

Maybe a smaller amount of border areas of Franconia if they also admit in a sufficient amount of certain North Central Italian territories, at least if they're willing to consider Albagensians Protestant...

Switrzerland does not want--and won't get--any territory outside of Switzerland. Period.

They weren't even enthusiastic about Vorarlberg after World War I!

"Public and political opinion in Switzerland about an additional Catholic canton with strong rural links and a monopolised industry joining the Swiss Confederation was ambiguous. Some, especially conservatives such as Gonzague de Reynold (1880-1970), supported the idea and founded a so-called Pro Vorarlberg movement in Switzerland. Its goal was a popular initiative for a union. 50,000 signatures would have been required to move this idea forward, but Pro Vorarlberg only collected 29,000. Nevertheless, the campaigning went on until the mid-1920s when it petered off in both Vorarlberg and Switzerland. Within the Swiss Federal Government, only one out of seven members strongly favoured Vorarlberg joining the Swiss Confederation. This was Felix Calonder (1863-1952), Minister for Foreign Affairs. However, he failed in his efforts as Pro Vorarlberg had done previously..." https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/vorarlberg_referendum

 

[Nebogipfel]

Wouldnt it be more likely that France would carve the French territories off of Switzerland then give them more? And you can also assume that Italy would have absorbed its minorities in Switzerland and kept those territories post war. I havent illustrated that in the map I made, mostly because i dont know how to use paint, but the remainder would be almost entirely German and so my rational would be that France would rather weld them to its other occupations zones and have a south german puppet under its heel that even if it strayed from France could assert its independence then a small German dominated swiss nation under its thumb which would inevitably fall under a larger fully unified german orbit or even be absorbed entirely by it.

I don't think that Italy would get away with keeping anything occupied in WWII. They would hand back the occupied part of Switzerland, subito, no discussion, or else. And France keeping parts of Switzerland occupied by Vichy? Seriously?And I don't understand the rationale to form a 'large' German state if you want to avoid any German resurgence to begin with - better keep SW Germany as small independent state and restore Switzerland. I think you massively underestimate the very strong identity of the Swiss - they would not assimilate in a couple of years, they would wage a guerillia war.

 

[Clandango]

Hmmmm. How fiercely did the Swiss fight during the invasion and after? Where they made citizens of the Reich, with all the high rations and conscription that came with it? Where their banks basically emptied by the Germans and their records and reputation for security destroyed? How many conscripted, as I imagine there would be a lot, never made it home? Depending on if they have old style German diplomats in charge (if putting up a temporary puppet state) or the army, party, or SS, you may get different treatment of the locals, as well as anger towards Germans in general. This is likely to be seen as a continuation of conflictoin fromtmhe time of William Tell, someone who Hitler seemed a littler derisive of. Or it could have been because he didn’t know of any other great warrior or folk heroes of theirs, ignoring how the Swiss were the soldiers for everyone else in Europe for centuries. Now... Besides a bunch of border areas and old areas that were in the Swiss Confederation once upon a time, what about if the Swiss are the ones to occupy and hold down the Ruhr? At least to an extent. Yah, not realistic.

 

[David T]

Hmmmm. How fiercely did the Swiss fight during the invasion and after? Where they made citizens of the Reich, with all the high rations and conscription that came with it? Where their banks basically emptied by the Germans and their records and reputation for security destroyed? How many conscripted, as I imagine there would be a lot, never made it home? Depending on if they have old style German diplomats in charge (if putting up a temporary puppet state) or the army, party, or SS, you may get different treatment of the locals, as well as anger towards Germans in general. This is likely to be seen as a continuation of conflictoin fromtmhe time of William Tell, someone who Hitler seemed a littler derisive of. Or it could have been because he didn’t know of any other great warrior or folk heroes of theirs, ignoring how the Swiss were the soldiers for everyone else in Europe for centuries. Now... Besides a bunch of border areas and old areas that were in the Swiss Confederation once upon a time, what about if the Swiss are the ones to occupy and hold down the Ruhr? At least to an extent. Yah, not realistic.

Austria put up no resistance whatever, produced plenty of Nazis (including Hitler!), was made an integral part of the Reich (and had after all been part of the Holy Roman Empire and the German Confederation) and *still* was treated as a "victim" of Germany, with the Allies agreeing well in advance of victory to restore its indpendence within its 1919-1938 borders. An Austrian government was formed as early as 1945 and if it took a decade for it to be revognized as fully independent that was because the USSR was using its zone of Austria as a bargaining chip. This last obstacle will not exist in the case of Switzerland--if the Soviets get *that* far west, it will change a lot of things more important than the fate of Switzerland.

Switzerland is quickly going to be restored to independence and neutrality within its post-1815 borders. Period.

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

Mercedes becomes a Swiss car company