China punishes opium consumption among it's people

[Arkenfolm]

Opium merchants pay off the people supposed to arrest them and opium dens operate openly since they pay off the people supposed to close them. The price of opium rises to some extent because of this. Some people are indeed caught and executed/punished, but in the end, not much progress is made eradicating the opium trade.

The Late Qing do not have the resources to do this, and the resources they have will be taxed by corruption.

 

[RousseauX]

Their rationality or lack thereof won't matter anymore when they're dead, though. Not endorsing this, but it seems like it could have some results.

I think something like 60% of murders are unsolved in the US today

so good luck bringing up the body count on drug offenders, murders tend to be reported: for the most part nobody gives a shit about the guy smoking up

the death penalty is only really good for deterrence if even that

 

[TRH]

I think something like 60% of murders are unsolved in the US today

so good luck bringing up the body count on drug offenders, murders tend to be reported: for the most part nobody gives a shit about the guy smoking up

the death penalty is only really good for deterrence if even that

I'm not the least bit clear on whether you're talking about the modern US or 19th Century China, but I'm strictly limiting myself to the latter, since that's what the thread's about.

 

[RousseauX]

I'm not the least bit clear on whether you're talking about the modern US or 19th Century China, but I'm strictly limiting myself to the latter, since that's what the thread's about.

Yeah my point is that it's even more difficult in 19th century China: if US modern day law enforcement can't do anything than neither can Qing China with much smaller state capacity

that's why you cut off the Opium at the source: it's much easier to control imports at a port than it is to track down users in rural shanxi or whatever

Not that it would helped anyway, by the late 19th century British opium imports were out-competed by domestic Chinese produced opium

 

[Tanc49]

Yeah my point is that it's even more difficult in 19th century China: if US modern day law enforcement can't do anything than neither can Qing China with much smaller state capacity

that's why you cut off the Opium at the source: it's much easier to control imports at a port than it is to track down users in rural shanxi or whatever

Not that it would helped anyway, by the late 19th century British opium imports were out-competed by domestic Chinese produced opium

It's also forgetting it's not any product, opium is addictive, especially those new strains that the Brits were pushing.

Opium was a traditional greeting, like a glass of scotch in "Mad Men". So people were used to it.

However, those new strains were way worse and way more addictive, and addicts gotta get their fix

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I think something like 60% of murders are unsolved in the US today

so good luck bringing up the body count on drug offenders, murders tend to be reported: for the most part nobody gives a shit about the guy smoking up

the death penalty is only really good for deterrence if even that

No. It's not QUITE that bad
http://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/395069137/open-cases-why-one-third-of-murders-in-america-go-unresolved

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Better idea: what if the Chinese cultivated their own opium within China? Thus, the addicted would have a cheap alternative to Indian/British opium and Britain would again have to pay in cash for Chinese goods.

 

[Tanc49]

Better idea: what if the Chinese cultivated their own opium within China? Thus, the addicted would have a cheap alternative to Indian/British opium and Britain would again have to pay in cash for Chinese goods.

They did too! Some estimation say as much was produced in China as was imported

 

[Avrorrange]

It was done eventually,but it was only done with the cooperation of Britain in 1906.

 

[Linbot]

It was done eventually,but it was only done with the cooperation of Britain in 1906.

So, this thread should be an Opium War DBWI?

 

[Optical_Illusion]

Better idea: what if the Chinese cultivated their own opium within China? Thus, the addicted would have a cheap alternative to Indian/British opium and Britain would again have to pay in cash for Chinese goods.

A paper here http://www.lse.ac.uk/economicHistory/workingPapers/2013/WP173.pdf has the conclusions (simplified) that the pre-Opium War trade was driven by trade of trusted Spanish American silver coin to China "since China did not coin silver". Read on page 26-27.

That is, Spanish American silver coin (peso) had a relatively higher price compared to unminted silver in China than in the West. Chinese merchants could only resolve that price differential through coin imports and goods and raw silver exports, as they couldn't just take their silver to the mint.

After developments in Spanish American (revolutions), the same coin ceases to be minted in quantity and reliable quality. The opportunities for arbitrage of Spanish American coin for Chinese goods and silver decrease and opium arises as an export substitute that suits (imperfectly) what Western and Chinese merchants were using silver coin for.

Following this, assuming no opium imports to China, what could happen is that Chinese exports just become uncompetitive in world markets faster (more expensive relative to silver coin imports), and decline in market share faster. Or, they adapt and become more competitive in world markets on price (and they may need technical innovation to do this). You may not have anything like "Oh, Western nations continue to import the same volumes of Chinese goods, but pay in silver coin" (as there isn't the silver coin at the right price level to do it)

 

[Avrorrange]

Better idea: what if the Chinese cultivated their own opium within China? Thus, the addicted would have a cheap alternative to Indian/British opium and Britain would again have to pay in cash for Chinese goods.

They did do that.Yunnan and Guangxi produced opium.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Better idea: what if the Chinese cultivated their own opium within China? Thus, the addicted would have a cheap alternative to Indian/British opium and Britain would again have to pay in cash for Chinese goods.

I thought the Chinese banned opium imports because they didn't want so many of their citizens getting addicted. Cultivating their own opium might help China's balance of trade, but it wouldn't do much to solve the social problems.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

I thought the Chinese banned opium imports because they didn't want so many of their citizens getting addicted. Cultivating their own opium might help China's balance of trade, but it wouldn't do much to solve the social problems.

Well, it would be a good short-term solution for their economic problems and to avoid the Opium Wars. Social problems are rooted deep in society and need a long-term approach.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Well, it would be a good short-term solution for their economic problems and to avoid the Opium Wars. Social problems are rooted deep in society and need a long-term approach.

Well, yes, and in retrospect growing domestic opium to out-compete the British looks like the better choice. I'm just not sure how plausible it is that the Chinese government would do it, though, given their motivations and knowledge at the time.

 

[RousseauX]

Better idea: what if the Chinese cultivated their own opium within China? Thus, the addicted would have a cheap alternative to Indian/British opium and Britain would again have to pay in cash for Chinese goods.

this literally what actually happened and why by the late 19th/early 20th century British opium importation stopped being an issue