Der Titel hat es schon erklärt. (But secondary or second Class Power is also ok)
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Challange: make Denmark a great power, with a pod of 1814
- Thread starter Gilbert4000
- Start date
Does the POD just have to be post-1812, or does it actually have to be in 1812? If the former, then all you really have to do is kill off Bismarck in the 1840s, have Prussia fall apart, and have Denmark unify Northern Germany. Boom. Denmark is a great power.
But...Denmark isn't even remotely German? I mean, sure, it's a Germanic language, but the Danes have never contemplated German nationalism as anything but a threat to their holdings in Schleswig-Holstein, so to say that Denmark can unify Northern Germany is...well, not exactly plausible, especially post-1812.
Unless you mean by conquest, in which case the issue of nationalism rears its ugly head again and the Danes would be hard pressed to hold such lands with German agitations for liberty and nationhood. And that still wouldn't make them Great Power tier.
Now, my easiest solution is nuclear war wiping out all the great powers and leaving Denmark the sole inheritor of Europe. Denmark in 1812 is a bit far from great power status, unfortunately.
That said, the mods frown upon posts where the OP does not posit anything in their original post and simply leaves it at "title", so I would tread softly and perhaps add to it lest it attract any ursine attention.
Hmmm...with certain cultural changes, it's probably possible for Pan-Scandinavianism to become a real thing...with an 1814 POD, I would try to get Sweden to somehow hang onto Finland, and thus Norway stays with the Danish crown. From there, Sweden and Denmark begin to cooperate much more politically and economically, and ultimately unify during the Era of Nationalism...though how that can be done while getting over Swedish concern of a New Kalmar Union is anyone's bet.
Meanwhile, the Italian unification wars become a lot messier, and Prussia gets drawn in while unprepared. They are roundly defeated by the French, and the Danes/Scandinavians take advantage of the chaos to integrate Schleswig-Holstein. ITTL, Prussia never quite re-emerges as a great power, and Austria is too crippled dealing with the obstinate Magyars to take advantage of the power vacuum in Germany. From there, Denmark benefits from an influx of immigrants from Germany, many of whom went to America OTL, helping to alleviate the demographic disadvantage. From here, during the era of colonization/scramble for Africa, Scandinavia picks up a fair share of African and other territories, likely what Germany got OTL. At this point, they are probably a power comparable to Italy and stronger than Prussia, so second-tier but still arguably technically a great power. I wouldn't be surprised if they have one of the best navies in Europe after Britain, though.
However, I don't know if there's any POD that would make this happen or how plausible it is.
Meanwhile, the Italian unification wars become a lot messier, and Prussia gets drawn in while unprepared. They are roundly defeated by the French, and the Danes/Scandinavians take advantage of the chaos to integrate Schleswig-Holstein. ITTL, Prussia never quite re-emerges as a great power, and Austria is too crippled dealing with the obstinate Magyars to take advantage of the power vacuum in Germany. From there, Denmark benefits from an influx of immigrants from Germany, many of whom went to America OTL, helping to alleviate the demographic disadvantage. From here, during the era of colonization/scramble for Africa, Scandinavia picks up a fair share of African and other territories, likely what Germany got OTL. At this point, they are probably a power comparable to Italy and stronger than Prussia, so second-tier but still arguably technically a great power. I wouldn't be surprised if they have one of the best navies in Europe after Britain, though.
However, I don't know if there's any POD that would make this happen or how plausible it is.
Danish are not Germans. They speak closely related language but them have still different language and culture. I think that best chance after 1814 is either united Scandinavia what I bit doubt or then Denmark keeps Danish Western Indies (later OTL American Virign Islands) and Iceland. Even in this case Denmark wouldn't be very strong but stronger than in OTL. And keep Danish military stronger.
It's implausible and before the POD, but it would be cool to see a Denmark-Norway that purchases Louisiana from France and settles the west of America.
More plausible is that surviving Denmark-Norway goes colonialist in Africa.
Namibia is good. And might be anywhere West Africa. In early 19th century there was yet much room for colonisation.
With a POD that early, the answer is "almost anywhere". The Danes historically had forts along the Gold Coast, and they ruled Travancore in India, and they had interest in the Nicobar Islands IIRC (plus the Virgin Islands in the Caribbean). It's not much of a stretch to say Denmark might have gained itself a few hodge-podge colonies here and there and be considered at least honourarily a great power.
Denmark getting in on the German Confederation and being part of Germany proper through some dubious hand-waving might get it as part of a great power.
It pretty hard to make Denmark a great power with such a late POD. But we have some potential, a earlier succession crisis could lead to a union between Denmark and Hesse-Kassel, this doesn’t make Denmark a great power, but it force Denmark to be a more active player in German politics. A earlier succession crisis also had ensure we avoid the later one. This enable Denmark to also keep Schleswig-Holstein. From there we either have to see the Bernadottes behaving really stupid in Sweden or we have to see Denmark entering colonial game again rather than just selling their empire off, of course all the prime real estate have already been taken, but . But as Mexico negotiated to sell California to Prussia, maybe Denmark could take that position (of course that’s near ASB) or we could see Russia sell Alaska to Denmark (which I think would be better as it wouldn’t bring Denmark into conflict with USA
Prussia accepts the Danish offer to join the German Confederation, and when the Austro-Prussian War beaks out Denmark proceeds to ally against Prussia and regain Holstein as well as expand to include Hamburg and east to Lake Schwerin.
Maybe during the Crimean War, Denmarkexpands a bit against Russia, seizing some Baltic islands (Aland and the Estonian Archipelago). Maybe Courland could be in the cards.
Have Denmark make more use of its colonies rather than just selling them off. Danish India could be good centers for trade and I think the Nicobar Islands could be a good launching point for asian expansion (particularly Lower Burma and Aceh). Danish Gold Coast, maybe Danish Namibia as a waystation to the Indian Ocean? Danish acquisition of Swedish Guadeloupe and Barthelememy. Heck, in the 1830s Spain was looking at selling Cuba (Belgium was a possible buyer IIRC) and the President of the DR was always looking for somebody to annex his country.
Danish Congo anybody?
The US opts against purchasing Alaska and Denmark gets it is a fun idea @Jürgen.
Maybe during the Crimean War, Denmarkexpands a bit against Russia, seizing some Baltic islands (Aland and the Estonian Archipelago). Maybe Courland could be in the cards.
Have Denmark make more use of its colonies rather than just selling them off. Danish India could be good centers for trade and I think the Nicobar Islands could be a good launching point for asian expansion (particularly Lower Burma and Aceh). Danish Gold Coast, maybe Danish Namibia as a waystation to the Indian Ocean? Danish acquisition of Swedish Guadeloupe and Barthelememy. Heck, in the 1830s Spain was looking at selling Cuba (Belgium was a possible buyer IIRC) and the President of the DR was always looking for somebody to annex his country.
Danish Congo anybody?
The US opts against purchasing Alaska and Denmark gets it is a fun idea @Jürgen.
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How far do we count the Netherlands as a great power? When did it cease to be one? Being in Europe and having an Atlantic port is enough to get your seat at the table, even if, like the Netherlands and Belgium, you're surrounded by continental powers who can each outmatch you with ease.
Denmark and a slightly federal Scandinavia could match that. Maybe this time the Danish King receives lands in Africa or Asia as a buffer between the other powers, in an equivalent of the Berlin Conference, or some coaling stations that everyone expects they'll be able to use next time war breaks out.
Not unrealistic at all. Like a nuclear war in the late C20th, the Berlin Congress could have all kinds of unexpected results, and it makes ASB ideas more realistic.
That would be so good. I feel like it would end up in Canada, but it's always possible that it ends up in an 'Scandinavian/Arctic/Northern Federation' with Greenland, Iceland, Svalbard, and the Scandinavian metropole.
If it's Denmark-Scandinavia the Alaska deal could be part of an arrangement with Russia hat includes the Baltic states and Finland.
Denmark and a slightly federal Scandinavia could match that. Maybe this time the Danish King receives lands in Africa or Asia as a buffer between the other powers, in an equivalent of the Berlin Conference, or some coaling stations that everyone expects they'll be able to use next time war breaks out.
Not unrealistic at all. Like a nuclear war in the late C20th, the Berlin Congress could have all kinds of unexpected results, and it makes ASB ideas more realistic.
That would be so good. I feel like it would end up in Canada, but it's always possible that it ends up in an 'Scandinavian/Arctic/Northern Federation' with Greenland, Iceland, Svalbard, and the Scandinavian metropole.
If it's Denmark-Scandinavia the Alaska deal could be part of an arrangement with Russia hat includes the Baltic states and Finland.
Denmark enters the Crimean War and gets Alaska in the peace in exchange for returning the Estonian Archipelago and Aland?
A Danish Rupert's Land might also be an interesting prospect. Perhaps the US somehow gets the 54-40 line and thus there never ends up being a desire for a trans-canada railroad.
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I don't think simply having a colony makes a country a power. Belgium had a large colony in Africa but Léopold II had gotten it basically as a compromise between the other countries. On the European level, Belgium was only influential due to the 1839 treaty in which the British were committed to defending it.
The Netherlands, though, were legitimately a power for much of the XVII century. They had the strongest navy in the world and also had great financial influence. Their problems started when they alienated Louis XIV and then had to protect themselves against a French invasion, which used up a lot of their resources.
We could have Russia sponsoring the Denmark-Scandinavia as their colonial proxy, and later by the rest of Europe, in the way that Belgium and Portugal were eventually supported by the general European colonial endeavor.
The idea would be that Russia could use Danish coaling stations to get to their Far Eastern regions, and that they'd have a safe way out of the Baltic, and also that's an extra flank on Germany. Britain, France, and Germany would be less alarmed at the Danish flag flying over these colonies.
I disagree. I believe that it was more the corrupt political system of the Netherlands than France that made the Netherlands fall from its great power status. That combined with a smaller amount of resources compared to its rivals of England and France.