Challange: make Denmark a great power, with a pod of 1814

We could have Russia sponsoring the Denmark-Scandinavia as their colonial proxy, and later by the rest of Europe, in the way that Belgium and Portugal were eventually supported by the general European colonial endeavor.

The idea would be that Russia could use Danish coaling stations to get to their Far Eastern regions, and that they'd have a safe way out of the Baltic, and also that's an extra flank on Germany. Britain, France, and Germany would be less alarmed at the Danish flag flying over these colonies.

France and GB woulden't be toelrating that, and if Denmark is aligning itself with their Russian rival I have no doubt the Western powers are going to be more likely to indulge the Pan-Germanic sentiments over the region (Which Prussia and Austria both support, giving you 4 of the 5 great powers alirgned) and thus Denmark will enjoy nothing like the historical diplomatic support/shield she did to handle the crisis IOTL. To say nothing of the fact such a policy would require abandoning the spirit of Scandinavianism with Sweden by Quislinging to Russia's policies, further undermining Copenhagen's position and opening quite a few vectors and motiviations to push for Norwegian Independence.

Denmark would be far better served by aligning with the West. Transfering the GDoF to a personal union out from under Russia MIGHT be possible given a firmer anti-Russian end to the Crimean War (Maybe the Allied fleets actualy get through to bombard St. Petersburg?) which would lay solid grounds for a Scandinavian Union decenteralized enough that you could likely get Slesvig in under a similar level of autonomy.
 
Does the POD just have to be post-1812, or does it actually have to be in 1812? If the former, then all you really have to do is kill off Bismarck in the 1840s, have Prussia fall apart, and have Denmark unify Northern Germany. Boom. Denmark is a great power.

But if POD is 1812 - 1814 Denmark has a snowball chance in Hell due to the wrong associations. It is allied to Nappy who is not going to let your schema to happen and after 1812 this is not going to happen because it is Nappy’s ally.
 
Denmark enters the Crimean War and gets Alaska in the peace in exchange for returning the Estonian Archipelago and Aland?

A Danish Rupert's Land might also be an interesting prospect. Perhaps the US somehow gets the 54-40 line and thus there never ends up being a desire for a trans-canada railroad.


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The problem with settling that patch of land: Not much by way of year-round ports. Hudson Bay freezes for half the year, so unless you have some real good icebreakers, if you're Denmark, you're going the long way around to get to the mouth of the Nass River, north of Prince Rupert, or to a Danish Alaska. Even then, you run into the same thing: No warm-water ports and long transit times to "The Good Land."

If you scootch the eastern border out a little ways, I guess you could have seasonal settlement patterns in which the main route of arrival into Danish America is a springtime cruise down the Nelson River and through the inland system until you get to a city on Lake Winnipeg somewhere, where you access the real country. But holding the territory would be hard. It would be cut off from the parent country for half the year, and the other half it would be hard to resupply for lack of decent east-coast ports - the Hudson Bay rim isn't exactly prime development land, with no potential for farming, and it's substantially colder than anywhere in Denmark. Most of the good land for farming and settlement is waaaaaay inland.
 
We could have Russia sponsoring the Denmark-Scandinavia as their colonial proxy, and later by the rest of Europe, in the way that Belgium and Portugal were eventually supported by the general European colonial endeavor.

The idea would be that Russia could use Danish coaling stations to get to their Far Eastern regions, and that they'd have a safe way out of the Baltic, and also that's an extra flank on Germany. Britain, France, and Germany would be less alarmed at the Danish flag flying over these colonies.
But most of the time between Peter I and Alexander III Russia had different alignments in the region so this is highly unlikely. The same goes for the colonial proxy: which colonies (useful for Russia) could Denmark get at the age of steam? Not to mention that the naval communications with Far East were not on a scale justifying such a great schema (and break with Germany) and that Russia did not (prior to the RJW) had coaling problems on that route: among other places, there were arrangements with Japan.
 
NetherlanLet's look at Denmark and it's potential

Modern Denmark without oversea territories are roughly 43000 km2, it have a population 5,8 million and a population density of around 136 people per km2.
In 1814 the Danish core also included Schleswig-Holstein, which are roughtly 16000 km2, which have a population of 2,9 million and a population density of 182 per km2
Altona (270.000) and Eimsbüttel (260.000) districts of Hamburg was a also part of the Danish kingdom.

Danish oversea territories was
Greenland: 55.000
Faroe Islands: 49.000

Iceland: 340.000
United States Virgin Islands: 105.000
Part of Ghana (population of the controlled parts unknown)
Tranquebar India: 23.000
Serampore: 180.000
Nicobars Islands: 37.000

Danish was historical mainly a agricultural produce and even today it's a majo agriclutural producer, it produce enough food to feed several times it own population.
Mining in Denmark are mainly bulk materials like clay, chalk and sand, it have a very limited potential as a coal, lignite and peat producer. By moder day it have a medium sized extraction of oil and gas production (enough oil to cover domestic use and more than enough gas to export it) and it's believed that there's a significant potential for fracking.

Denmark have one thing going for it in the 19th century, even with the very limited reserve of fuel and lack of metals, Denmark was able to industrialise thanks to almost all major towns having access to sea, the few exceptions had access to small navigational rivers. As such Denmark already had a a transport network before the railroads.

Jernbane_kort.jpg


Danish early railroad network

Geographic the Danish island and the east coast Jutish peninsula was very productive agricultural regions. But the western part of the Jutish peninsula was dominated by a massive heath in northern Jutland and by marshland in the duchies. When Denmark lost Schleswig-Holstein it was able to expand the agricultural area with a areas bigger than the duchies by putting the heath under plough. Eastern Schleswig-Holstein and the islands of Lolland-Falster was the most fertile parts of Denmark. The southern coast of Holstein was the main center of Danish industrialisation until the loss of the duchies after which those industries fell into decay, as they lost access to their old markets and Prussian import-export policies worked against te industrialisation of these regions. Schleswig-Holstein still suffer under this and are the poorest West German state.

So now that i have covered the basic part of Danish weaknesses and strenght. Let look at what we could do in Europe, if Denmark could increase the population density to the same as Schleswig-Holstein's, Denmark in its modern border would have around 8 million people, when we includes the duchies the population would lie around 10 million people. Not impressive but a improvement.

I think the first problem we have to deal with is the Succession Crisis and Schleswig Wars. These problems could be dealt with together. We could go several ways, the easiest way would be that Frederik VII produced a heir, he doesn't seem to have been infertile, or that his father prouced another son in his second marriage or that his uncle produce a son. To deal with the Schleswig Wars let Christian VIII live a little longer, as he would be unlikely to surrender completely to the 1848 uprising as his son did. A slightly more conservative government in Copenhagen would have lead to the duchies not rebelling. There would still be unrest, but without the 1st Schlewig War and the Succession Crisis, Denmark would pretty much have stayed a Scandinavian-German version of Belgium. With Holstein being the industrial part, while the more rural Denmark supplied material and labour to the growing industry in Holstein.

Denmark not being busy with national feuding and dealling with a decade long succession crisis could also focus resources elsewhere. It could begin a earlier colonisation of the heath and marsh. It could invest greater development of Iceland and Greenland, especailly because it would have greater capital. Iceland are pretty marginal, but agriculture could have been expanded there. Greenland have a greater potential for mines.

As for colonies elsewhere, it demand a slighly more visionary policy from the Danish government. But it would make sense for Denmark to see if it could trade Tranquebar and Serampore for the British forst in Ghana and Nicobars plus a large sum of money for the Dutch parts. This would pretty much give Denmark control over Ghana and Togo, which would give raw material to its industries. Denmark had already done a lot to expand the local farms. Later as Denmark had success in expansion her, we could see other colonial projects, like going for Namibia-Botswana, and maybe getting the foot in some other before the colonial race really begins. The problems are that the real good real estate is already taken or able to defend itself against a minor international actor like Denmark.
 
I disagree. I believe that it was more the corrupt political system of the Netherlands than France that made the Netherlands fall from its great power status. That combined with a smaller amount of resources compared to its rivals of England and France.

The second part is more important because as time goes on more and more resources and population are required to be a great power. Neither the Netherlands or Denmark have them or the ability to gain and keep them with a POD of 1814.


Which illustrates some of the problems Denmark would face. Today it has a population less than the metropolitan area I live in (Chicagoland). When individual cities have greater populations than the entire country nobody would call it a great power. Without tens of millions of people or an extreme technological advantage that somehow only Denmark possesses I don't see how it can be considered a great power.
 
The second part is more important because as time goes on more and more resources and population are required to be a great power. Neither the Netherlands or Denmark have them or the ability to gain and keep them with a POD of 1814.
I agree. The Netherlands alone, just like Denmark alone, can not be/remain a great power in the 19th century and later. Not unlike how France and the UK can no longer be a great power in the 21 st century.
 
I agree. The Netherlands alone, just like Denmark alone, can not be/remain a great power in the 19th century and later. Not unlike how France and the UK can no longer be a great power in the 21 st century.

Meh... the Netherlands could have extended their influence around the globe. If they kept Belgium and its industries. But yes, being a great power will not last until the 20th century.

Denmark is in a slightly better position. A religiously homogenous population. The only threat to them is a united Germany which can be thwarted as much as possible.
 
What Denmark lacks is population. @Jürgen mentioned barely 3 million in 1814. Which is really low. The acquistion of Sweden and Norway in a Danish led state would help a bit more.

Then there is Germany. This is not too problematic. There are more states that want the Germans to remain divided. Using their cards right they can prevent a large unification at least. Which makes dealing their situation Europe better.

What also lacks is a strong Danish Navy. Denmark has a geography that makes a Strong Navy important. An okay land Army but a stronger Navy is a big plus.

To be a global power after 1814 will only work if they rule all over Scandinavia (minus Finland) and later get to rule some large parts of Africa (The Congo?). In their current state they might be at best, influental around the globe owning some islands and lands in the Caribbean, Africa, Asia and the Pacific.
 
I agree. The Netherlands alone, just like Denmark alone, can not be/remain a great power in the 19th century and later. Not unlike how France and the UK can no longer be a great power in the 21 st century.

I disagree Netherlands could have been a small great powers in the 19th and early 20th century even after the loss of Belgium, if it was something the Dutch had wanted and was willing to go after, but the Dutch was happy with their one major colony and being relative irrelevant in international politics. We could see Sweden pretty much being a great power under the Cold War thanks to its massive industries, neutrality and activist foreign policy even with a population smaller then New York. But here's the thing with Denmark, it lack the population or colonial empire of the Dutch and it lack the massive industries of Sweden.

This is what make the challenge so hard with the existing POD. Denmark do have some potential, Greenland have enormous iron and copper resources (and a wealth of other valuable minerals too), but Denmark really lacked the expertice or capital to set this up, it would demand some visionary leaders of Denmark to use this potential. Denmark have some potential as a colonial power, but it next to impossible that even a activistic Danish colonial policies will create a colonial empire, which can rival the Dutch East Indies. It will pretty much demand that Denmark play all its cards well and have a lot of luck to just become somewhat relevant in power politics.
 
I disagree Netherlands could have been a small great powers in the 19th and early 20th century even after the loss of Belgium, if it was something the Dutch had wanted and was willing to go after, but the Dutch was happy with their one major colony and being relative irrelevant in international politics. We could see Sweden pretty much being a great power under the Cold War thanks to its massive industries, neutrality and activist foreign policy even with a population smaller then New York. But here's the thing with Denmark, it lack the population or colonial empire of the Dutch and it lack the massive industries of Sweden.
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I tend to agree with @pompejus here, the loss of Belgium and the from the Dutch perspective betrayal of their allies, especially Prussia and Russia (which left them them to the French and the British, so much for the dynastic ties the Orange-Nassau's had with the houses of Hohenzollern and Romanov (well technically Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov)), instilled the idea, that the Dutch role as a 'Great' power was finally over. Let's not forget, that what would become Belgium at the time was more populous and had more resources for the Industrial revolution. An ATL Netherlands, which would have stayed united (and thus no Belgium ITTL) could IMHO played the role you describe though.

As for Denmark, I see a lot of mentions of Schleswig-Holstein, but let's not forget Scania, Blekinge and Halland, if one wants to increase Denmark in size and population and thus power, then these territories, which once were Danish should certainly be considered (too). Maybe more than Holstein, since integrating Holstein (and Schleswig, though Holstein was a member of the German Confederation as a former Imperial ('HRE') fief), did not only bring Denmark in a war with Prussia, but the entire German Confederation, including Austria, which united vastly outnumbered Denmark in manpower (and economic power).
 
I tend to agree with @pompejus here, the loss of Belgium and the from the Dutch perspective betrayal of their allies, especially Prussia and Russia (which left them them to the French and the British, so much for the dynastic ties the Orange-Nassau's had with the houses of Hohenzollern and Romanov (well technically Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov)), instilled the idea, that the Dutch role as a 'Great' power was finally over. Let's not forget, that what would become Belgium at the time was more populous and had more resources for the Industrial revolution. An ATL Netherlands, which would have stayed united (and thus no Belgium ITTL) could IMHO played the role you describe though.

It made perfect sense for the Dutch to stop trying to be a great power, but that was a choice, and in my opinion a good choice. But being a great power depend on international influence and playing the Game of of Great powers, which is why states like Saudi Arabia and South Africa today are treated as major powers and why Sweden and Yugoslavia was able to de facto be Great Powers in the Cold War.

As for Denmark, I see a lot of mentions of Schleswig-Holstein, but let's not forget Scania, Blekinge and Halland, if one wants to increase Denmark in size and population and thus power, then these territories, which once were Danish should certainly be considered (too). Maybe more than Holstein, since integrating Holstein (and Schleswig, though Holstein was a member of the German Confederation as a former Imperial ('HRE') fief), did not only bring Denmark in a war with Prussia, but the entire German Confederation, including Austria, which united vastly outnumbered Denmark in manpower (and economic power).

The problem is that Skaaneland are under Swedish control.
 
Unlikely, but if Denmark had experienced massive population gaines between 1814 and 2000 would it be possible then? How large would Denmarks population have to be to be considered a regional power in Europe?
 
Unlikely, but if Denmark had experienced massive population gaines between 1814 and 2000 would it be possible then? How large would Denmarks population have to be to be considered a regional power in Europe?

Population not yet make great power. And that can too achieve with small population too. Denmark would need some military and economy muscles and it has too have political influence. And even with best case scenario after 1814 I doubt that population would be much higher than six millions.
 
Population not yet make great power. And that can too achieve with small population too. Denmark would need some military and economy muscles and it has too have political influence. And even with best case scenario after 1814 I doubt that population would be much higher than six millions.
What about 12 million? Could Denmark plausibly reach such a population number?
 
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