CH/WI: US Experiences More Than One Million Casualties

Would the American populace tolerate a conflict that gets to that level however?

But still, thanks, you have provided the best scenario so far in regards to plausibility and not needing WMD.:)
Not easily, but Revenge is a decent motivator, and with hostile countries in your backyard toleration of high casualties becomes easier, especially if Britain does a few ill advised coastal raids that kill some civilians, or the Canadians burn a few border towns

There probably will be WMD's in this scenario, its WWI so gas would be used
 
Not easily, but Revenge is a decent motivator, and with hostile countries in your backyard toleration of high casualties becomes easier, especially if Britain does a few ill advised coastal raids that kill some civilians, or the Canadians burn a few border towns

There probably will be WMD's in this scenario, its WWI so gas would be used

With the first, interesting.

With the latter... okay, technically chemical weapons are, but their ability to be countered and their limited damage doesn't really put them in the realm of biological or nuclear weapons. (Yes, one can counter biological, however it still isn't as easy with chemical because of its much larger area of effect.)
 
A conventional war with the Sovs could get you a million casualties if it happened in the 40s or 50s.

But this is like the recipe for rabbit stew--first you have to figure out how to get a conventional war with the Sovs.

Bonus points if it also involves US troops fighting in China, that should tick up the casualty figures nicely.

Or WI you have an WWII equivalent but against a Soviet Union that dominates most of the Continent.

Say the Brits agree to a white peace, the Germans turn their attention to the USSR, Lend Lease still happens, and the Germans get their arses kicked. But when Germany is collapsing and Soviet troops are rolling into Germany/Austria, Stalin is drunk on the heady wine of victory and makes an uncharacteristically incautious address about the unstoppable revolution and Soviet triumph, including menaces to Italy, France, and Spain and implied threats to imperialist powers that might attempt to block the armed might of the proletariat from throwing off their fascist oppressors in these countries. Whether Stalin would have followed through on any of this is highly doubtful, but he dies soon afterwards (probably of natural causes, but better yet if there's a good case to be made that its some western national that somehow manages to assassinate him). And in the power vacuum, the Soviets do follow through, partly because of the heady wine of victory, partly because factions are competing to see who can be more true to Stalin's victory, and partly because the speech provides a convenient platform for the survivors to rally around instead of having to negotiate a consensus political platform in the absence of any obvious successor to Stalin. Powerful Red Army elements support the program too because (1) it keeps them in the center of affairs and (2) its obvious that the USSR will best be protected if there aren't capitalist staging grounds on the mainland with which to threaten the revolution (in other words, despite some wild talk about worldwide revolution, the real goal here is securing continental Europe, though folks abroad don't necessarily know that). Additionally, communists in one of the threatened countries--Italy, Spain, or France--make a revolutionary attempt that has some initial success, and the soviet leadership feels like it needs to support it. Result: before the Soviets have even finished mopping up Germany and Austria and before they are logistically able to launch a serious attack, the USSR declares war/launches a few attacks on these countries.

It helps a lot if we assume that at least one of France or Italy, preferably France, has thrown out their fascist government. Lets say its France, presumably with British help, and that the communists were brought in as part of a coalition government but tried for a premature coup after Stalin's victory speech.

Lets also say that extremist communists in Britain and America engage in attacks and provocations soon after the Stalin speech, carried away on a surge of enthusiasm that the worldwide revolution has finally come.

Now here's where it gets tricky. I don't think FDR, who had a big blind spot where communists were concerned, would be very likely to be willing to fight to defend France against communist invaders. At the same time, I think you need the US to have a military build-up and a discrediting of isolationism, which means you probably need a US war with somebody, probably Japan. But if that happens, FDR probably retains office as in OTL. However, by the time the USSR is on the point of beating Germany, FDR could have plausibly died. We could even have him die earlier than OTL. Lets say he does die in '43 or '44, there's a conservative reaction as in OTL, and coincidentally there is also an earlier discovery of some of the Communist penetration of the organs of American government, which had a notoriously lax approach to security (perhaps, also as OTL, the reaction is just a little ginned up for political purposes).

Up shot is that both the US and the UK commit themselves to the security of France and end up in a what they think is an existential war with the USSR.

Nukes haven't been invented yet and though they are being crash-programmed, they are still at least two years off. The Russians have millions of men under arms, and the Anglo-American high command is convinced that the French foothold on the continent must be held at all costs, because once it is lost it cannot be regained (the earlier experience with the Nazis taking France and Britain subsequently dropping out of the war will only seem to reinforce this notion). France becomes the scene of a desperate defensive struggle. Millions die. Mothers are childless and wives are widows.
 
Considering that most countries that experience heavy causalities or a really destructive war tend to react in one of the following ways.

If they're still a powerful nation or become one afterwards the reaction tends to be to engage in more diplomatically minded actions or less overtly aggressive means to protect themselves like how the Soviets made various buffer states to give them some protection as well as a punching bag to absorb any damage so they wouldn't have to in case they were ever attacked.

if they're weak afterwards they tend to focus on trying to refrain from getting involved in any conflicts and tend to become somewhat insular kinda like How Bulgaria post ww1 tried to shift it's focus from nationalist expansion to just trying to stay out of any spats going on around them and focus on rebuilding.

So it depends really on what kind of state the US is in afterwards. One reason why the US got so into the Spanish-American war was to give a common cause for the previously divided parts of the country a thing to unite behind and have soemthing to smooth out tensions and finally try to end whatever hostility remained.
 
With the first, interesting.

With the latter... okay, technically chemical weapons are, but their ability to be countered and their limited damage doesn't really put them in the realm of biological or nuclear weapons. (Yes, one can counter biological, however it still isn't as easy with chemical because of its much larger area of effect.)
I'm a technicalities kind of guy you understand

The US Canadian and US Mexican borders are very long and both sides would have lots of cavalry for launching raids into the other guys country

As for naval raids on the coast, I could see that happening, the US has defenses around key areas, but a lot of coast and someone might get the idea to shell a few towns to tie down US resources defending every inch of coast
 
I'm a technicalities kind of guy you understand

The US Canadian and US Mexican borders are very long and both sides would have lots of cavalry for launching raids into the other guys country

As for naval raids on the coast, I could see that happening, the US has defenses around key areas, but a lot of coast and someone might get the idea to shell a few towns to tie down US resources defending every inch of coast

The question is, who wins? The UK or the US? Regardless, whoever, "wins," I seriously doubt either country will benefit in the long run, to say the least.
 
With my land war with the USSR scenario:

if we assume that the US ends up in a war with Japan fairly close to OTL, this means that a conventional war with the USSR could easily take place in China and Korea and Manchuria in addition to Western Europe. The opportunities for serious bloodshed are pretty significant.
 
The question is, who wins? The UK or the US? Regardless, whoever, "wins," I seriously doubt either country will benefit in the long run, to say the least.
Assuming the US is in with Germany and AH, and the UK with France and Russia, the US is almost certainly on the winning side
 
Get some international involvement in the Civil War. As I recall in OTL Britain flirted with aiding the Confederacy at one point. How about Mexican involvement?
 
ASB or not, they would be pin-pricks - and more costly for the Japanese and Nazis than for the US

to generate a million dead, a mechanized land war on US soil, a massive expeditionary force to another continent, or multiple Hiroshima-sized nukes on US cities, would be required IMO

Really? I'm thinking less those raids by themselves causing a million casualties and more the PODs required to make either happen would lengthen WWII enough for a million casualties. Amerika bomber raids probably require either a British or Soviet defeat before or around the time the US enters the more and Japanese attacks on the west coast probably need a Midway defeat, Japanese take Hawaii scenario. Both happening somehow could lead to the A-bomb being used on Germany, leading to Operation Downfall happening which may cause a million casualties by itself.
 
Get some international involvement in the Civil War. As I recall in OTL Britain flirted with aiding the Confederacy at one point. How about Mexican involvement?

Mexico is being invaded by France at the time and is if anything a US ally but getting a US-France War in the 1860s could do the trick.
 
Really? I'm thinking less those raids by themselves causing a million casualties and more the PODs required to make either happen would lengthen WWII enough for a million casualties. Amerika bomber raids probably require either a British or Soviet defeat before or around the time the US enters the more and Japanese attacks on the west coast probably need a Midway defeat, Japanese take Hawaii scenario. Both happening somehow could lead to the A-bomb being used on Germany, leading to Operation Downfall happening which may cause a million casualties by itself.

The problem with this is that either the UK or SU being defeated are either insanely unlikely or ASB, depending on the scenario to do either.
 
The problem with this is that either the UK or SU being defeated are either insanely unlikely or ASB, depending on the scenario to do either.

USSR is extremely hard I agree but the UK probably only needs a failed Dunkirk or a different, less bellicose Prime Minister than Churchill. Maybe one leads to the other since a failed Dunkirk may lead to a hawk like Churchill being unacceptable for PM.
 
I had a bare-bones idea for a scenario once involving the U.S. invaded by a genocidal coalition of Latin American nations a la the Germans and their allies invading the USSR.

The U.S. bounced back, occupied everything down to Colombia, and attempted to forcibly "Americanize" the conquered populations (AKA make them Anglophone Protestants, or at least US-style Catholics), all while making various attempts to subvert South American states a la OTL's events that inspired the Truman Doctrine, support for analogues to the Red Army Faction, etc.

Not sure how to actually get this to happen though. It'd be an AHC.
 
I had a bare-bones idea for a scenario once involving the U.S. invaded by a genocidal coalition of Latin American nations a la the Germans and their allies invading the USSR.

The U.S. bounced back, occupied everything down to Colombia, and attempted to forcibly "Americanize" the conquered populations (AKA make them Anglophone Protestants, or at least US-style Catholics), all while making various attempts to subvert South American states a la OTL's events that inspired the Truman Doctrine, support for analogues to the Red Army Faction, etc.

Not sure how to actually get this to happen though. It'd be an AHC.

An American version of buffer states? Interesting, to say the least.
 
The fact the U.S. is trying to forcibly Anglicize these countries, much like how the Soviets imposed Communism rather than just getting basing agreements, undermines the "buffer" rationale.

Well, yes, I'm just pointing out they have the same rationale, not that it's a just one(although sadly likely considering the circumstances.)
 
I agree but the UK probably only needs a failed Dunkirk or a different, less bellicose Prime Minister than Churchill. Maybe one leads to the other since a failed Dunkirk may lead to a hawk like Churchill being unacceptable for PM.

...and no Hugh Dowding, no Keith Park, no Robert Watson-Watt, no Sydney Camm, no RJ Mitchell

and even then the smart money's on Britain

even if Lord Halifax didn't have a dentist appointment at the critical moment, an armistice still isn't a shoo-in
 
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