Carthago supervivenda est!

Leo Caesius

Banned
I've decided to start posting the rudiments of a new stealth-ATL for Carthage. By "stealth-ATL," I mean that the events follow events in OTL very closely - with the result that they generate relatively few butterflies, at least not until much later along the line. In fact, there is no major POD for this TL, but the divergences that characterize it may even have occured in OTL - but have had such little effect as to be unnoticed. This first post will establish the context to the events which occur both in OTL and the ATL.

1180 BCE - Traditional date for the founding of Lixus (Punic Liks), a Phoenician settlement on the Atlantic coast of Morocco (slightly south of Tangiers).

1110 BCE - Traditional date for the founding of Cadiz (Punic Gadir "fortified citadel" Latin Gades).

1101 BCE - Traditional date for the founding of Utica.

9th c. BCE - Phoenicians trade for tin along the Atlantic coast of Spain, which is under "Tartessian" - native Iberian - control. The city of Gadir benefits from the proceeds of this trade, and in the process the Tartessians become heavily influenced by them, adopting their alphabet, architecture, technology, burial practices, etc.

814 BCE - Carthage (Punic Qart Hadast "Newton") is founded.

753 BCE - Rome is founded.

7th c. BCE - Southeastern Spain and the Atlantic coast of Morocco as far south as Sala (modern Rabat) are colonized by Phoenicians. Small cities are the norm (Malaka, Sexi, and Abdera in Spain, and Tingis, Lixus, Tamusida, and Semes on the African side), with seasonal trading emporia established along the Portuguese coast and along the African coast. Several of these, such as Lepqi (Leptis Major) later develop into cities proper.

610-595 BCE - Reign of Necho II of Egypt. According to Herodotus (4.2.2), Pharaoh Necho sent a fleet manned by Phoenician sailors around Africa and return to Egypt via the Pillars of Heracles. The sailors return to Egypt after three years. "This is how Libya was first discovered to be surrounded by sea, and the next people to make a similar report were the Carthaginians."

573 BCE - Tyre is captured by the Babylonians, who put an end to its colonial ambitions. As a result, many trading posts and even small cities are abandoned; the Phoenician colonists of southern Spain retreat to Gadir, and the African traders fold up their emporium at Mogador and return north.

553-533 BCE - Reign of King Hiram III of Tyre. Hiram is a Tyrian merchant who, in the aftermath of the Babylonian invasion, has become king of the city.

539 BCE - Cyrus the Great conquers Babylon, putting an end to the Neo-Babylonian Empire and establishing the Achaemenids as masters of the Near East.

To be continued...
 
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Leo Caesius

Banned
534 BCE - The demand for tin and other metals had brought the Phoenicians to Cyprus, to Spain, and even to the Isles of Scilly - but even so, they were never satisfied with the sources they had already discovered, and continually ventured further in search of more. Five years after the Achaemenids had conquered Babylon, and granted the Phoenician city states of the Levantine coast new freedoms, Hiram of Tyre decides to duplicate the successes of his ancestors, and send an armada of Tyrian ships around Africa to the old colonies on the Atlantic seaboard (Liks, Gadir and the others, who had grown rather independent in the 60 years since they had been cut off from the mother colony). As they had done in the time of Pharaoh Necho, the Phoenicians encamp for several months each year to plant and harvest crops for the coming year.

532 BCE - During the third leg of the journey, one of the ships is blown off course by a storm and hurled into the Atlantic. Caught in a southeasterly current, they float adrift. While adrift in the Atlantic, ten crew members perish.

The fifteen survivors discover a previously uncharted island in the Atlantic. They recuperate on the shores of this island, by the banks of a large and navigable river, and set off on the long journey home - but not before engraving a small stele to mark the location of their landing. They write,

We are sons of Canaan from Sidon, from the city where a merchant has been made king. He dispatched us to this distant island, a land of mountains. We sacrificed a youth to the celestial gods and goddesses in the 19th year of our King Hiram. We sailed from Ezion-Geber into the Red Sea and voyaged with ten ships. We were at sea together for two years around Africa. Then we got separated by the hand of Ba’al and we were no longer with our companions. So we have come here, twelve men and three women into one island, unpopulated because ten died. May the celestial gods and goddesses favor us!
The celestial gods and goddesses do indeed favor the Phoenician mariners, and they return to Tyre via the Pillars to report their discovery to the new king. Unbeknownst to them, they have landed within scant miles of the largest iron deposits in the world. These mines are discovered by subsequent explorers, departing from Gadir, and the island on which the mines are found is named Iy-Barzil, "The Island of Iron."
 
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Leo Caesius said:
We are sons of Canaan from Sidon, from the city where a merchant has been made king. He dispatched us to this distant island, a land of mountains. We sacrificed a youth to the celestial gods and goddesses in the 19th year of our King Hiram. We sailed from Ezion-Geber into the Red Sea and voyaged with ten ships. We were at sea together for two years around Africa. Then we got separated by the hand of Ba’al and we were no longer with our companions. So we have come here, twelve men and three women into one island, unpopulated because ten died. May the celestial gods and goddesses favor us!
Ah. the Paraiba inscription. Devious. I like it.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Yes - it's the Paraiba Inscription (for those of you who don't recognize it, this is a Phoenician text that was reportedly found on a Brazilian plantation somewhere along the Rio Paraibo do Sul, in 1872). After it was initially published by Ladislaw Letto, the famous French orientalist Renan blasted it as a forgery, and little was heard about it until a student of Cyrus Gordon's discovered some of Letto's original correspondence. Gordon republished the inscription, claiming that it was authentic, sparking a vicious flamewar within the pages of Orientalia between him and Frank Moore Cross (of DSS fame).

I studied epigraphy with Gordon's student Bill Ward (former Dean of Faculty at AUB) and Cross' student Jo Ann Hackett, and knew both men socially (although I never had the opportunity to study under them, they having both retired). Ironically, it was Gordon who made it possible for me to study with Cross' students, because he took me under his wing after Ward's death and ensured that I continued my graduate studies. Consequently, this text has loomed large in my career.

Gordon admitted to me, shortly before he died, that the text was probably a Masonic forgery. Still, it would still be nice to see how history would have been different, had the Phoenicians discovered America. Thus this thread is dedicated to Cyrus Gordon and Bill Ward.
 
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Now Leo, How exactly would the Phoenicians return to Tyre withoout an compass. I mean you would have to sail back through the Atlantic using Brazillian repaird Phoenician ships. How would the Phoenicans even survive in the tropical forests of Brazil...being used to the lukewarm climate of the Medeterrainen. How would relations between the Amazonian Natives and the Phoenicians Devolop and will we see another installment?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Historico said:
Now Leo, How exactly would the Phoenicians return to Tyre withoout an compass. I mean you would have to sail back through the Atlantic using Brazillian repaird Phoenician ships. How would the Phoenicans even survive in the tropical forests of Brazil...being used to the lukewarm climate of the Medeterrainen. How would relations between the Amazonian Natives and the Phoenicians Devolop and will we see another installment?
I have the data around here somewhere; I suppose I could upload it, even though I did a search and this idea seems to have been done to death.

I would imagine that the Phoenicians navigated by the stars. If need be, they could travel north until they hit the Gulf Stream, which would deposit them back in the Isles of Scilly, familiar territory to them by now.

Relations between the Phoenicians and the natives would remain good. The Phoenicians would probably start with temporary trading posts, which would not even necessitate knowledge of the local languages. Subsequently they'd start colonizing but they'd probably integrate fairly well as they did in North Africa. Before you know it, you'd have a generation of Barzilophoenicians who were comfortable in both Phoenician and the local dialects. That's where I was heading with this.

The climate is not a concern to me. The Spanish survived, after all. I don't imagine the Phoenicians hiking deep into the Amazon; I'm positive they'd restrict themselves to the coast, as they did in the Mediterranean, and possibly the region of OTL Minas Gerais.
 
Leo Caesius said:
I have the data around here somewhere; I suppose I could upload it, even though I did a search and this idea seems to have been done to death.
I am intersted in seeing the Data...It's got some potential

Leo Caesius said:
I would imagine that the Phoenicians navigated by the stars. If need be, they could travel north until they hit the Gulf Stream, which would deposit them back in the Isles of Scilly, familiar territory to them by now.
Interesting Argument

Leo Caesius said:
Relations between the Phoenicians and the natives would remain good. The Phoenicians would probably start with temporary trading posts, which would not even necessitate knowledge of the local languages. Subsequently they'd start colonizing but they'd probably integrate fairly well as they did in North Africa. Before you know it, you'd have a generation of Barzilophoenicians who were comfortable in both Phoenician and the local dialects. That's where I was heading with this.
What would the impact of the Horse and Iron have on the future Native Sociites in this Timeline and are you going to continue it.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Historico said:
What would the impact of the Horse and Iron have on the future Native Sociites in this Timeline and are you going to continue it.
I'm quite interested in seeing how the alphabet, of all things, does in the New World, as does contact on a small scale with a more mercantile mindset. The Phoenicians weren't out to conquer anyone; they were interested in trade. Personally, I think that the aboriginal societies will come out all the better for it.
 
Punic Vinland

There is a possibility here that this could be a dead end colony. Survives as a borderline successful output then withers away and the remnant survivors assimilate into the local population. Is eventually spawns what is regarded as a myth until some 20th century archeologist digs it up.

Probably not where you want to go.

Tom
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Tom_B said:
There is a possibility here that this could be a dead end colony. Survives as a borderline successful output then withers away and the remnant survivors assimilate into the local population. Is eventually spawns what is regarded as a myth until some 20th century archeologist digs it up.
I don't see it as dominating the New World or even surviving intact, but I do think that it will have important ramifications for the history of the Precolumbian societies.

The colonies will be jeopardized after the Punic Wars, of course, and that is where I think the most potential for mischief occurs.
 

Thande

Donor
I'm afraid that if you look at the Ah.com charter, it is illegal to bring up a prehistorical/classical scenario that does not include an earlier discovery of America by an unexpected nation. :p
 
Leo Caesius said:
I'm quite interested in seeing how the alphabet, of all things, does in the New World, as does contact on a small scale with a more mercantile mindset. The Phoenicians weren't out to conquer anyone; they were interested in trade. Personally, I think that the aboriginal societies will come out all the better for it.
Course, the Hispanians might disagree with you a bit there.

There was a short story about Carthaginian refugees fleeing to America, and founding a new state after the Punic wars.

Centuries later, Christopher Columbus visits the Carthaginian Empire....
 
Thande said:
I'm afraid that if you look at the Ah.com charter, it is illegal to bring up a prehistorical/classical scenario that does not include an earlier discovery of America by an unexpected nation. :p
I suddenly have the hankering to have the Huns discover America... :cool:

Ok, it was funnier when I was going to have the Swiss do it, but then I read prehistorical/classical.
 
Perhaps the Huns manage to do better and after Attila's death Rome agrees to allow them to settle in Lusitania. The Hun language survives mixed heavily with latin, and the Huns transform themselves from land nomads to sea pioneers.

Im sorry Leo for hijacking your thread.

I like how this is going so far, you work is always good and a pleasure to read. I have a question though. Is it possible that when the natives gain the idea for a written form for their language that they might create a alphabet that is written boustrophedon and is syllabary? It just would be nice for them to come up with something unique. Just and idea from a lowly peon.

Once again, great work!
 
Pushing the Huns aside for a :rolleyes: second...So basically the Phoenicians will be like the French in North America and set up an powerful trading empire without being to militaristic? But do you think the Persians, and the Greeks be intrgued by Phoenicia's new colonies in Brazil...To start of an Classical Age of Exploration?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Historico said:
Pushing the Huns aside for a :rolleyes: second...So basically the Phoenicians will be like the French in North America and set up an powerful trading empire without being to militaristic? But do you think the Persians, and the Greeks be intrgued by Phoenicia's new colonies in Brazil...To start of an Classical Age of Exploration?
I'm not so sure. The Carthaginians were famously secretive. They prevented the Greeks from setting foot on Corsica in 540 BCE. They kept the Strait of Gibraltar locked up tighter than a kettle drum. The Greeks and the Romans were kept completely in the dark about the Canaries and Madeira for as long as possible, and for good reason. According to Diodorus Siculus,
In ancient times, this island remained undiscovered because of its distance from the entire inhabited world, but it was discovered at a later period for the following reason. The Phoenicians, who from ancient times on made voyages continually for purposes of trade, planted many colonies throughout Libya and not a few as well in the western parts of Europe. And since their ventures turned out according to their expectations, they amassed great wealth and essayed to voyage beyond the Pillars of Heracles into the sea which men call the oeean. And, first of all, upon the Strait itself by the Pillars they founded a city on the shores of Europe, and since the land formed a peninsula they called the city Gadeira; in the city they built many works appropriate to the nature of the region, and among them a costly temple of Heracles, and they instituted magnificent sacrifices which were conducted after the manner of the Phoenicians. And it has come to pass that this shrine has been held in an honour beyond the ordinary, both at the time of its building and in comparativelv recent days down even to our own lifetime. Also many Romans, distinguished men who have performed great deeds, have offered vows to this god, and these vows they have performed after the completion of their successes. The Phoenicians, then, while exploring the coast outside the Pillars for the reasons we have stated and while sailing along the shore of Libya, were driven by strong winds a great distance out into the ocean. And after being storm-tossed for many days they were carried ashore on the island we mentioned above, and when they had observed its felicity and nature they caused it to be known to all men. Consequently the Tyrrhenians, at the time when they were masters of the sea, purposed to dispatch a colony to it, but the Carthaginians prevented their doing so, partly out of concern lest many inhabitants of Carthage should remove there because of the excellence of the island, and partly in order to have ready in it a place in which to seek refuge against an incalculable turn of fortune, in case some total disaster should overtake Carthage. For it was their thought that, since they were masters of the sea, they would thus be able to move, households and all, to an island which was unknown to their Conquerors.​
The Greeks didn't make it to Britain until the Carthaginians were bogged down in a war with the Syracusans, whereupon Pytheas of Massalia took the opportunity to evade their blockade and explore the British Isles. I recall reading somewhere else (not Diodorus; possibly Strabo) that the Carthaginians would not allow anyone to pass the Pillars of Hercules without a government official on board, and that Carthaginian merchants who plied the Atlantic were given standing orders to sink their ships (and go down with them) rather than allow their trade routes to fall into the hands of the Greeks. For this reason, it should not be surprising that the location of the Canaries, known to the Carthaginians and their successors, the Numidians, was lost to the West for over a thousand years, until it was rediscovered by a Genoese sailor.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Faeelin said:
Course, the Hispanians might disagree with you a bit there.
And the Syracusans... and the Libyans to a certain extent ... but still. The Carthaginians were aiming at consolidating their power within the Mediterranean, and controlling their mercantile empire, particularly with regards to the tin trade. Control of Hispania was crucial to both. Once they were out of the Mediterranean, small-scale trading entrepots seemed to be the extent of their ambitions. They didn't exploit the Atlantic coast of Europe or Africa nearly as much as they could have, and they didn't bother to colonize Britain at all, AFAIK. Then again, we're working with little or no data, so a single discovery could rewrite the way we look at Carthaginian colonialism.

Faeelin said:
There was a short story about Carthaginian refugees fleeing to America, and founding a new state after the Punic wars.

Centuries later, Christopher Columbus visits the Carthaginian Empire....
You don't by chance remember who wrote this short story or where you found it? That sounds interesting. The author probably had in mind the very passage from Diodorus Siculus that I just quoted when he wrote it.I doubt Columbus would visit the Carthaginian empire, per se, but a lightly Punicized New World is where I'm heading with this.
 
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