Carrier based kriegsmarine

How would an aircraft carrier based kriegsmarine would perform? In this TL, Hitler for whatever reason decides or is convinced that big battleships are waste of limited money and industry, that airplanes are the present and future, and focus on the construction of aircraft carriers and submarines.

The biggest battleships are the pocket ones of Deutschland class, still built and used alongside cruisers and destroyers as the carriers escorts. The Scharnhorsts and Bismarcks aren't built, and their material is used to build the Graf Zeppelins and their evolution classes. This TL GZ has no casement guns, to improve the design.

In terms of logistics and industry, the aircraft models should be shared between the KM Air Arm and the Luftwaffe, so it will improve costs due economy of scale and shared design development.

In terms of organization, there is a Kriegsmarine Air Arm, that is created to solve the problem with interservice rivalry between the Luftwaffe and the KM. Instead of a lone carrier raiding convoys, they use the task forces to project power.

The british will probably respond by building their share of aircraft carriers and airplanes. Or not? Considering that everyone was still building battleships, the KGV program will be like OTL and their carriers will be considered enough.
 
Biz and PE could break into the Atlantic. Two carriers would have been sunk by the County class CA. You are right that the RN would spot and react to an overt threat to trade even if the sub part failed last time and the carrier is unproven.
 
If the two carriers use their air wing effectively, the counties wouldn’t get close. But, the North Sea is not optimal for carrier ops, the bf109 would be a death trap as a carrier fighter, and unless they start with carrier ops in the 20’s, their doctrine would be suspect. Cooperation with Japan would help, but I doubt the master race would be amenable to “help” from some Asians.
 
If the two carriers use their air wing effectively, the counties wouldn’t get close. But, the North Sea is not optimal for carrier ops, the bf109 would be a death trap as a carrier fighter, and unless they start with carrier ops in the 20’s, their doctrine would be suspect. Cooperation with Japan would help, but I doubt the master race would be amenable to “help” from some Asians.
Hitler was actually the most amenable to working with the Japanese. He called them the "Aryans of the East." He had no problem collaborating with them. It's just that long-distance cooperation like that, with geopolitical opponents in between, is hard to do.
 
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the problem for German Carriers is the Baltic and North Seas are too narrow for safe carrier operations. unlike the vastness of the Pacific, all parts are reachable by land-based air, which will generally outperform carrier aircraft of the time.
 
The Royal Navy would have killed the Graf Zepplin Carriers very quickly once they tried to break out into the Atlantic. I would not say they would not suffer in the process but the RN would have likely goten some improved aircraft once the threat of multiple Kriegsmarine carriers was real.

The Hawker Hurricane with a folding wind could have been produced if the impetus was early enough. Fairey could have designed a new wing for it if given the lead time as opposed to the Fulmar etc.
 
If the two carriers use their air wing effectively, the counties wouldn’t get close. But, the North Sea is not optimal for carrier ops, the bf109 would be a death trap as a carrier fighter, and unless they start with carrier ops in the 20’s, their doctrine would be suspect. Cooperation with Japan would help, but I doubt the master race would be amenable to “help” from some Asians.
Could they develop the FW190 early? It had lots of features that were good as a naval fighter.

Interesting will be how that carriers and their task forces would break into Atlantic. At night, a reverse channel dash, or even by the denmark strait.
 
If the two carriers use their air wing effectively, the counties wouldn’t get close. But, the North Sea is not optimal for carrier ops, the bf109 would be a death trap as a carrier fighter, and unless they start with carrier ops in the 20’s, their doctrine would be suspect. Cooperation with Japan would help, but I doubt the master race would be amenable to “help” from some Asians.
The British, at the start of the war, had the Gloster Gladiator and later the Fairey Fulmar as carrier based fighters, neither of which would stand a chance in combat against the Bf-109. They could rush the naval conversions of the Hurricane and the Spitfire, and those had similar issues as the Bf-109 when navalized: namely, a narrow undercarriage and short range.
So while it's true that the Germans didn't have a good carrier based fighter, it's not like the British had Corsairs in 1939.
 
The British, at the start of the war, had the Gloster Gladiator and later the Fairey Fulmar as carrier based fighters, neither of which would stand a chance in combat against the Bf-109. They could rush the naval conversions of the Hurricane and the Spitfire, and those had similar issues as the Bf-109 when navalized: namely, a narrow undercarriage and short range.
So while it's true that the Germans didn't have a good carrier based fighter, it's not like the British had Corsairs in 1939.
It would be an exaggeration to say that a 109 would be impossible to land on a carrier, but narrow undercarriage isn't a winner for that kind of activity. The 109 is also fairly small, so there's not a lot of scope for navalising it. So even though it's a better fighter than the Fulmar or Gladiator it might not be so useful if there's a high failure rate on take off or landing, or if it can't stay aloft for very long. We might yet see He51 and the like as stopgaps if the 109 can't be made to work.

An important question is what they are for. Uboats and cruisers are better for commerce raiding, and trying to achieve air and naval superiority in the North Sea without battleship escorts will be unlikely to have a chance, as shown by HMS Glorious.
Baltic domination should be achievable using land based anti-naval air (although carriers might help), attacking Britain needs either Channel coast airfields or long range bombers and escorts, so the carriers are limited here too. Because of the likely objectives, a strong carrier fleet will alarm Sweden and Norway, unsettle the Baltic states, and probably annoy the USSR.
In the Baltic, within range of land based air, these would likely need to be designed with. armoured decks.
None of this prevent their use, but there are real barriers that include strategic purpose and practicality and speed which would need to be addressed before use.
 
Well there's this story (although that includes Bismarck):
Let's see. The earliest KM Graf Zeppelin could be finished is late 1940. Then she will sit in port while her Luftwaffe air group works up on land bases for the most part, with perhaps a few live exercises in the sheltered Baltic to practice their carrier landings and use of the catapults. Then the order to accompany KM Bismarck and KM Prinz Eugen on their Atlantic breakout comes.

Everyone is in high spirits as the three ships leave Kiel and head to Norway, where their location is revealed to the British. Because the German surface raiders are accompanied by an aircraft carrier, the British response ensures that an Illustrious-class carrier accompanies HMS Prince of Wales, HMS Hood, and several crusiers hopping to intercept the Germans in the Denmark Straits.

On board Graf Zeppelin, the Luftwaffe aircrews find that operating their jury-rigged Bf-109T's and Ju-87C's from the rolling and pitching carrier deck is far different from their training in the calm Baltic. After three landing accidents destroying a Ju-87 and two Bf-109s, the Kriegsmarine orders the Luftwaffe air group to cease any further flights until any enemy ships are sighted. This timidity disgusts the several Japanese naval advisors on board the carrier, who have little doubt their own flight crews would have little difficulty conducting flight operations in similar conditions. They also know the British (whom the IJN still admires) will be in the air.

As the Japanese advisors suspected, the Royal Navy knows its stuff. A Martlet from HMS Illustrious make an initial contact with the German raiders north of Iceland, and this is followed by an attack by 14 Swordfish torpedo bombers. Graf Zeppelin is the focus of the attack, in which she is struck by one torpedo that starts a fire, crippling the aft elevator.

The Germans are then saved by increasing fog that forces the British to suspend air operations. However, unknown to the British a battle of sorts is brewing on the Graf Zeppelin, between the ships's Kriegsmarine commander and the Luftwaffe general commanding the air unit. Finally Lutjens on Bismarck is forced to intervene. Incensed that the British seem to have little difficulty operating their carrier aircraft, Lutjens orders the Luftwaffe to throw caution to the wind and ensure that a CAP is up at all times and Ju-87 dive bombers are fueled and armed on deck to immediate launching as soon as any British ships are encountered.

The Luftwaffe aircrew gets it's chance to redeem itself when the visibility improves and Prinz Eugen sights HMS Sheffield, which had been trailing the Germans at a discreet distance until both ships made course corrections that inadvertantly brought them into range of each other. The order is given to launch a strike at Shellfield with all 14 Ju-87s on deck. What transpires is a deadly comedy of errors. First, it takes far too long for the catapult system on Graf Zeppelin to launch all the Stukas, and by the time the small flight has reached an appropriate altitude to underake dive bombing attacks, Sheffield is no longer in visual range of Prinz Eugen. However, the Luftwaffe is determined to show up those Navy bastards. Flying to Sheffield's last reported position, they sight a cruiser and attack it. Unfortunately, the cruiser is Prinz Eugen, whose KM coded messages to the Stukas are ignored because the flight crews only have Luftwaffe code books with them. Luckily for the German cruiser, the Stukas fail to damage their target, but they then must manage a sucessful landing back on the Graf Zeppelin. Four of the Fourteen aircraft crash on landing, one plowing into the island bridge.

While Graf Zeppelin is attempting to recover her aircraft she separates from the Bismarck and fog again returns. As the ships separate, Graf Zeppelin steams directly toward the Sheffield, whose commander is astonished to see an aircraft carrier emerge from the fog in point blank range for his 8-inch guns. What develops is a running battle between the two ships, with Sheffield landing numerious hits but also taking severe damage herself from the Graf Zeppelin's strong gun battery (the Kriegsmarine my be incompetent with aircraft, but its gunnery is always excellent). In fact, the carrier's gunnery is so effective that Sheffield is forced to retire from the action

By now the commotion has brought Lutjen's into the fray and also attracted the attention of Illustrious, Hood and Prince of Wales. Illustrious's swordfish begin the action with a sucessful strike at Graf Zeppelin, leaving her listing and taking on water. Unaware that the British capital ships are closing on his position, Lutjen's orders Prinz Eugen to take off survivors and scuttle the carrier. While this operation is underway and Bismarck is slowly idling about, a nearly stationary target herself, Hood and Prince of Wales emerge from the gloom. The rest is of course, history. But to this day the Battle of the Denmark Strait is remembered as the greatest British naval victory since the days of Nelson - three major German naval units sunk with only minor damage to Sheffield
The biggest battleships are the pocket ones of Deutschland class, still built and used alongside cruisers and destroyers as the carriers escorts. The Scharnhorsts and Bismarcks aren't built, and their material is used to build the Graf Zeppelins and their evolution classes. This TL GZ has no casement guns, to improve the design.
I don't think it's likely they will build her without guns, because they will see her as a raider (especially since they're not building battleships in your scenario, so they arenot able to operate taskforces) and she needs to defend herself if the weatheris too bad for airoperations.

Also there's this:
The ship's original included eight guns in single casemates, and Chief Engineer Hadeler suggested they be doubled up to save weight, two guns in four casemates. His request was mis-interpreted, and the total number of guns was doubled to sixteen, which added additional weight to the carrier.

Thta's just hilarious and shows the incompetency of the German designers. It's quite hard the imagine that this design team will suddenly become supercompetent and design a carrier that's ahead of its time withour any prior experience of building or handling carriers.
 
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Ramontxo

Donor
The British, at the start of the war, had the Gloster Gladiator and later the Fairey Fulmar as carrier based fighters, neither of which would stand a chance in combat against the Bf-109. They could rush the naval conversions of the Hurricane and the Spitfire, and those had similar issues as the Bf-109 when navalized: namely, a narrow undercarriage and short range.
So while it's true that the Germans didn't have a good carrier based fighter, it's not like the British had Corsairs in 1939.
The Sea Lords had wanted Spitfire naval derivatives from the beginning. Fairey was developing the Monarch* with two engines at the fighter front, side by side, but each one driving (independently) its own propeller of an contrarotating pair (it was tested in the US and worked reliably for two years, after the war the idea was copied in the Double Mamba used for decades) . Such an installation in the Fulmar would have made it a beast. In an universe where the Germans are deploying carriers you will have either an Seafire, the Fulmar with the Monarch engine (in my wet dreams an Double Merlin...) or ar the very last an Hurricane with folding wings far before the first of the carriers being build are deployed.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Monarch
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Well there's this story (although that includes Bismarck):

I don't think it's likely they will build her without guns, because they will see her as a raider (especially since they're not building battleships in your scenario, so they arenot able to operate taskforces) and she needs to defend herself if the weatheris too bad for airoperations.

Also there's this:


Thta's just hilarious and shows the incompetency of the German designers. It's quite hard the imagine that this design team will suddenly become supercompetent and design a carrier that's ahead of its time withour any prior experience of building or handling carriers.
Yes the ship was too top heavy by far. Add to that the compressed air catapults worked well to send mail carrying seaplanes (their original use) but that once depleted took ages to reload... Try to land the Me 109 in an slanted carrier and at the North Atlantic was going to be funny... (well not exactly for the pilot)
 
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I think we always need to understand the thought processes that leads to the changes. It could be the plan Z rewritten or it could be a way of making task forces on the cheap. Imagine the money invested into the D class heavy cruisers and carriers on a similar hull with a few spahkreuzer’s thrown in and you have a very interesting KM. This may be able to evade opposition, choose its battles and if getting lucky with the torpedoes even attack larger prey. The QE and Rs didn’t have much torpedo defense to speak of.
 
If the two carriers use their air wing effectively, the counties wouldn’t get close. But, the North Sea is not optimal for carrier ops, the bf109 would be a death trap as a carrier fighter, and unless they start with carrier ops in the 20’s, their doctrine would be suspect. Cooperation with Japan would help, but I doubt the master race would be amenable to “help” from some Asians.

Visibility was 3-5 miles, apparently. That's not going to make it easy to find the Counties and deal with them.
 
Could they develop the FW190 early? It had lots of features that were good as a naval fighter.

Interesting will be how that carriers and their task forces would break into Atlantic. At night, a reverse channel dash, or even by the denmark strait.

Where are the resources coming from?

It's simply not possible to break into the Atlantic "at night", unless you can break the laws of physics and make an aircraft carrier that can do a sustained 100+ knots for the 800+ mile passage.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
... what would count for the Counties as well ...
You can use radar to track ships. None of the aircrafts to be used in the German carriers were radar equipped. But even if they were the FAA was the only force in the world able to torpedo at night
 
I think we always need to understand the thought processes that leads to the changes. It could be the plan Z rewritten or it could be a way of making task forces on the cheap. Imagine the money invested into the D class heavy cruisers and carriers on a similar hull with a few spahkreuzer’s thrown in and you have a very interesting KM. This may be able to evade opposition, choose its battles and if getting lucky with the torpedoes even attack larger prey. The QE and Rs didn’t have much torpedo defense to speak of.

Using RN 1930s costs (which showed that a 36 a/c carrier cost 125% to run as a 35,000 ton battleship ) dumping the Twins for two Ds seems to allow you to run, at most, one light carrier with approx. 24 aircraft. Building the 6 Spahrkreuzers costs roughly 1.25 Bismarcks IIRC, so the left-over cash may get you another light carrier. So you end up with no heavy ships and two carriers that inferior to Furious, Courageous, Glorious, Ark and Victorious, and similar to a slower Eagle with some escorts.

Given that two out of three attacks by RN fleet carriers at sea scored one damaging hit, and assuming the tyro KM has a similar hit rate, it may well be that the RN would be very happy to have to take on a carrier-heavy KM.

The 1930s RN costs assumed a five year life for aircraft, which in WW2 was of course vastly less. Given the KM's inexperience, they would have run through planes and crew even more quickly, increasing costs dramatically. The KM would have needed a training carrier or two as well as any active carriers, further increasing costs.
 
Where are the resources coming from?
...
Probably ffrom the source the US military always got and get its funds:
debts​
...But even if they were the FAA was the only force in the world able to torpedo at night
... question of training
You can use radar to track ships. None of the aircrafts to be used in the German carriers were radar equipped.
As noted, the Counties had radar. And that radar allowed them to track ships without landing on and off.
... as had the germans as well.
 
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