Can industrialization happen without causing democracy?

TerranGames

Basically, I'm trying to ask if it is possible for a world to develop industrially and technologically to modern standards without liberal democracy becoming a major force in the world? I know that "authoritarianism" is just as much a development of the modern world as liberal democracy was, and the our would might be seen as totalitarian in the level of government control and power compared to the more decentralization states of the past, so saying "Could the modern world have stayed authoritarian?" wouldn't be that accurate of a question. But could the modern world's political systems have developed down a different path, steering mainly clear of the modern democracies based around universal suffrage and popular representation? Could non-democratic systems have come to dominate? Maybe if the industrial revolution starts outside of Europe, influenced by different ideas?

(Also, without something like a Nazi victory, or World Revolution™ scenario. They're not what I'm asking about.)

Thanks!
 

Arkenfolm

Any correlation between industrialization and democracy is strictly a Western European phenomena. Plenty of nations have industrialized and retained an autocratic system. If anything, even less would be democracies if not for WW2 effectively aborting the experiment of fascism which is an alternative way for a nation to cope with the social changes of industrialization (since nations like Spain, Hungary, or Italy were not very democratic and easily could've ended at the other end of the extreme).

Key examples would be Russia, China, pre-1945 Japan, and Singapore.
 
Clandango

Clandango

Unlikely, since I assume we are aiming for the level of comfort we currently have in the West. You can get plenty of industry with unbalanced democracies with swathes of the population being ineligible for the franchise, but if their is not a large amount of people who can buy consumer goods not just meant for survival then there will be less investment in those fields.
 
Siberian Tiger

Siberian Tiger

Russia and China industrialized without becoming a democracy. And with the right POD, Italy and Spain could have industrialized without becoming democracies.
 
EasternRomanEmpire

EasternRomanEmpire

With industrialization there certainly is contestation of pre-existing systems since workers want rights but this doesn't mean that it needed to happen, for example without the French Revolution and subsequent wars there would be much weaker calls for democracy.
 
Mildtryth

Mildtryth

TerranGames said:
Basically, I'm trying to ask if it is possible for a world to develop industrially and technologically to modern standards without liberal democracy becoming a major force in the world? I know that "authoritarianism" is just as much a development of the modern world as liberal democracy was, and the our would might be seen as totalitarian in the level of government control and power compared to the more decentralization states of the past, so saying "Could the modern world have stayed authoritarian?" wouldn't be that accurate of a question. But could the modern world's political systems have developed down a different path, steering mainly clear of the modern democracies based around universal suffrage and popular representation? Could non-democratic systems have come to dominate? Maybe if the industrial revolution starts outside of Europe, influenced by different ideas?

(Also, without something like a Nazi victory, or World Revolution™ scenario. They're not what I'm asking about.)

Thanks!
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If you're basically discounting totalitarianisms, the bigger question in a European context is how can the Ancién regime survive the upheavals of industrialization without losing its essence.
 

Fabius Maximus

Mildtryth said:
If you're basically discounting totalitarianisms, the bigger question in a European context is how can the Ancién regime survive the upheavals of industrialization without losing its essence.
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Medieval kings often used to ally with the commons in order to curb the power of the nobility; I think it's quite conceivable that modern kings could do something similar by passing pro-workers' rights legislation.
 

jacob ningen

Palestine under Zahir Al Zaydani and Nabulsi industrialization led to more of a venetian model than democracy. What if we flip the question democratization without industrialization? then we have the Haudenosaunee confederacy, Palestinian agricultural allocation pre Tanzimat
 
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EasternRomanEmpire

EasternRomanEmpire

Fabius Maximus said:
I know, I was just using it to illustrate that monarchs can and do support the interests of poorer people, whether out of self-interest or idealism.
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Depends, I doubt an absolute ruler would be very keen on giving concessions to the workers since he doesn't exactly gain anything from it, he would be forced to at some point but he would prefer not to.
 

Fabius Maximus

EasternRomanEmpire said:
Depends, I doubt an absolute ruler would be very keen on giving concessions to the workers since he doesn't exactly gain anything from it, he would be forced to at some point but he would prefer not to.
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Keeping people content with his rule and preventing the growth of a potential rival power bloc (super-rich people who aren't him) would both be gains.
 
Gabingston

Gabingston

Fabius Maximus said:
It's often forgotten now, but laissez-faire economics was a left-wing progressive notion back in the day.

I know, I was just using it to illustrate that monarchs can and do support the interests of poorer people, whether out of self-interest or idealism.
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A lazziez-faire, socially libertarian Left versus a distributist/interventionist, socially conservative Right would be an interesting ATL political spectrum.
 
durante

durante

Gabingston said:
A lazziez-faire, socially libertarian Left versus a distributist/interventionist, socially conservative Right would be an interesting ATL political spectrum.
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It's not that weird, really. You'll still hear anarchists say "the freer the market, the freer the people - but we don't have a free market, we have corporate welfare"
 
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