That is only useful if they are in a strong enough position to enforce it though. Otherwise they can insist on what they like, without command of the sea, or successful u-boat war, they are not in a position to get the British to agree to anything.
Britain and the Empire in a Central Powers victorious World
- Thread starter The Federalist
- Start date
That is only useful if they are in a strong enough position to enforce it though. Otherwise they can insist on what they like, without command of the sea, or successful u-boat war, they are not in a position to get the British to agree to anything.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Well, my understanding was that Britain had lost its allies and wanted peace. In that kind of situation it is going to run out of credit lines, and is going to be facing mass social unrest. It has to compromise to get peace
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
I would not be so sure about that. The Ottoman Empire makes a very nice jumping off point to attack Egypt and India via Persia. Yes, the Arabs might make it difficult to maintain the lines of communication, but not impossible if German bombers transferred from the now defunct Western Front drop mustard gas on their families.
Occupation of parts of France and Imperial Russia effectively defeats the British blockade of the CP by allowing them to draw supplies from these areas (albeit at the expense of the locals). There is thus little to stop them rolling into action with the advantage that their rail lines of communication are shorter that the British sea lanes.
Under such circumstances, it would pay for the British to call for peace before the Germans start hitting their crown jewels.
Sorry to keep bringing it up,
but a lot depends on when this CP victory is.
If late in 1914, we can expect that things won't change much. France maybe loses the rest of Alsace-Lorraine, and is forced to demilitarise the border regions.
If in 1917-18, the penalties would probably be much more severe.
but a lot depends on when this CP victory is.
If late in 1914, we can expect that things won't change much. France maybe loses the rest of Alsace-Lorraine, and is forced to demilitarise the border regions.
If in 1917-18, the penalties would probably be much more severe.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Why do you think it would be impossible? The British attacked over the Sinai... with the entire German army available and resources freed up, all that would be needed would be to construct a rail line to supply an army. The British managed ten divisions with one single-track line - and that's after a supply chain stretching back to Britain. The Ottomans have a direct line from Palestine to Istanbul and Germany.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
You are ignoring the financial aspects of war. If Britain is being intransigent, they will lose access to capital markets, their currency and bonds will collapse in value, and they'll risk serious domestic issues, if not revolution, if they do all this to avoid having to give anything up in a war they lost. Not to mention that the Germans will take it out on France, alienation of which is not too smart in this situation.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
What Arabs? They are irrelevant without the British army - you're talking about 30,000 beduin who will quickly and abjectly submit once the war is over.
There is no chance that the Ottoman government would ever consider under any circumstances whatsoever allowing the dropping of mustard gas on its own citizens. Since all the Arabs revolting were from the Hijaz, that would effectively mean using WMD on Mecca.
There is no chance that the Ottoman government would ever consider under any circumstances whatsoever allowing the dropping of mustard gas on its own citizens. Since all the Arabs revolting were from the Hijaz, that would effectively mean using WMD on Mecca.
Rockingham
Banned
The same would occur in Germany as well though(albeit to a lesser extent perhaps) due to the blockade and loss of makets, would it not? It's in Germany's interest to end the wr as soon as possible as well, and if the price is a few scraps of African desert or swamp, so be it.
Egypt yes...but India
? They could occupy Persia, but to invade India they need Afghanistan, a British ally. The British themselves failed twice trying to annex it, so what makes you think an over extended German advance would have more success? They couldn get further then then the Indus without a rebellion in India. Baring in mind the that the Brits used Indian troops to defend India, their supply lines are shorter. Besides, the CP have to push the Allies back out of Mesompotamia and the Levant first if they want to launch an assault.David S Poepoe
Banned
Can that actually be considered likely in regard to the Armenian Genocide? Unless there are a distinction with the Ottoman Empire of Arabs and Armenians.
The last thing they want is Afghanistan. What they would do is drive along the coast laying a railway behind themselves . No need to get bogged down in the mountains at all.Egypt yes...but India
Shorter for manpower. Longer for tanks and aircraft. Guns and ammunition would be longer to start with, but these can be manufactured in South Africa and Australia and thus the time to deliver them by sea would be say the same as delivery for the Germans from their factories at home. Net result, advantage Germany.
Susano
Banned
If Germany wins, that probably means no US intervention, and that means it cancontinue with submarine warfare. Hence Germany and GB are at each other throats with submarine warfare and naval blockade, respectively, but if Germany wins on the continent, the effects of the naval blockade will quite reduce (and if by slave labour in the occupied Russian territories) - wheras Britain will continue to be besieged by the submarine warfare. So its at least possible Germany can force GB to make major concessions.
I dont think its likely, though. If Germany wins over France I doubt itll have the nerve for a longdrawn naval war. Most likely what Germany will force through is the taking-over of the French (and depending on the WW scenario, Italian) colonies without British interference.
I dont think its likely, though. If Germany wins over France I doubt itll have the nerve for a longdrawn naval war. Most likely what Germany will force through is the taking-over of the French (and depending on the WW scenario, Italian) colonies without British interference.
The chances are that seeing the French getting pasted, the Italians will sit WW1 out. That at least will would allow them to hang onto their colonies.
Susano
Banned
No, Italy will join the war allright. I think thatmuch was inevitable. The question is to which side the opportunists turn...
AS other s have stated previously it depends on when and how the CP Win.
Early in the War is highly unlikely..so a late 1918 victory is probably the most likely. Sometime in the Fall. Germany willhave had to make substantial commitements to the Western Front to get a defeat and fall of France or at least apostion where France/Britain are willing to go to the table. If its later Bulgaria and the Ottomans (October) will have folded and A-H is heading towards a disaster at Vittorio Veneto or something similiar. Even if that doesn't happen the best the A-H can hope for is a stalemate vs the Italians without outside help. Given a need to support one of its allies...Germany will probably send troops to A-H before the Ottoman's
So assume victory is early to mid Fall...September say..they come to the table. The American entry will have to have been delayed so they are officially still not at War or the French and British would not even be talking.
officially then the Ottoman's and Bulgarian's are still in the fight. Mesopotamia and the Levant are occupied however and Bulgaria is under severe pressure from Greece. The Italians and A-H are basically stalemated but A-H has not suffered its humiliating disaster yet. B-L will be a fait accompli for the CP Asif they Entente and CP are sitting down to talk...The Entente knows that short of prolonging the War there is nothing they can do to undo it. We are assuming of course that the situation on the Western Front is such that The French feel they must concede defeat, otherwise why would they be talking. Thus Germany has basically gained a very large prfitable "Empire by proxy" if you will in the East. This is also going to colour the French/Italian and British negotiators.
For the Germans and A-H and their allies, they all know they are at the end of their rope...and it will be some time before resources from the East can come into play to save them...I doubt they will be intransigient if there is a chance that peace can be had on terms acceptabe to all.
Starting in the Pacific...as it is the easiest...Japan gives back Pulau, Germany forgoes any recompense for the loss of the remaining Micronesian islands and Tsingtao ( Japan will be handing this back shortly anyway to China so what difference does it make, perhaps it returns to China as part of the peace as a compromise If Germany can't have the place then neither will Japan, it just hastens the process that occurred OTL)...both save face. France cedes New Caledonia if Australia and NZ insist on keeping their acquisitions ( Britain will restrain them from preventing the German occupation). Germany is in no position to push for anything beyond this in the Pacific and should count themselves lucky to get it as the RN and Anzacs and Japanese can basically make it impossible for them to retake their Pacific possesions if they want, with little or no effort expended on their part.
In Africa, Germany can get Tanganyika back, its been held for the shortest time. German gets Kamerun and Togo back. SW. Africa stays with S. Afr. Dahomey is given to Germany along with the the southern portions of Fr. Eq. Africa ( East of the Congo ) to compensate. Belgian Congo becomes a Franco-Belgian co-Protectorate. Germany can by Sp. Eq. Guinea later if they like.
On the Eastern Front. B-L is recognized.
In the Balkans...I am not sure where the fronts are at this point so I would think though the settlement if it comes will be on the basis of possession.
Bulgaria gets Serb Macedonia and southern Dobruja. Treaty of Bucharest is reaffirmed. Bosnia gets its independence (under a Hapsburg dynasty, there has to be someone to sit in Sarajevo, compromise to the allies). Serbia, Montenegro and Albania get pro A-H Governments and their Monarchs may change though that would be unlikely..
Middle East...Mesopotamia and the Levant is lost to the Ottoman's. Without prolonging the war there is no way to get those territories back. For AHP's benefit....If agreement is reached regarding the West...East...Balkan and Italian theaters....Germany and A-H will not prolong the war and risk American entry ( they will favour the Entente remember) and risk losing their gains for acres of Ottoman desert and swampland. The Ottoman's can be compensated with a sphere of Influence in the Caucasus perhaps ( both Cis and Trans). depending on how things transpire with the Russian revolution...all of Central Asia is open as well perhaps...but that would be open to debate at the time of the talks...so perhaps the Ottoman's can be persuaded to let go of the middle East for promised compensation and support later.
The Middle East gets divided as per OTL between France and Britain. Perhaps an adjustment of the Northern Persian border in favour of the Ottomans but not alot.
In the West...return to the pre-War borders. Minor reparations by France to Germany. Minor Reparations from Italy and Serbia to A-H. France may offer to trade some of their colonial possesions for the return of A-L (German protectorates in Morocco...the French Levant (the Br. won't like it but probably won't prolong the War over it, and may encourage the Ottoman's to get it back instead of having the German presence in the Eastern Med.) Other French possessions that could go for this are Madagascar, Ivory Coast and French Guinea ( Fr. Indochina perhaps....The Brits and Japanese would have reservations, but does strengthening the French in Europe aid them in the long run against an Imperial Germany that is increasingly over reaching its power projection capabilities). The Germans probably won't go for this at all. A-L is more valuable than any of these colonies from an Economic point of view and easily more defendable. They will probably counter with demands for the remainder of Lorraine just so they vacate France to dissuade the French once and for all of attaining the laughable goal of acquiring A-L at this point. France will counter by offering one of these colonies or perhaps French Guiana simply to have them drop that demand for the remainder of Lorraine and lessen its reparations. Lets say French Guinea, French Guiana and Madagascar and a protectorate over Morrokko then and the Imperial Germans will withdraw to prewar and settle for reduced reparations.
There that just leaves the Russian Civil War to deal with and insuring the
Ottoman's get their promised sphere of interest.
The Washington Treaty will see Imp. Germany as a major player on par with Japan at least, but perhaps on par with USN and RN itself. The whole dynamic there is going to change somewhat.
Aside from major reparations there is no reason theat the Germans and A-H cannot accept this proposal. Italy and A-H return to prewar btw...
Britain gets off lightly but still has huge war debts to the American banks keeps its Dominions relatively happy. Given a stronger presence for the CP Canada could get a role in the Carribean and eastern N.Atl. this time around similiar to that of S.Afr and Australia and N.Z. postwar. Borden pushed for it but was declined by London OTL. Here there will be more bargaining strength for him. By turning over responsibility for even some of the minor Carribean islands will free up some of Britain's resources for use elsewhere against Imp. Germany (likely West and East Africa).
France gets a reduced Empire centred on smaller holdings in the Caribbean, North Africa, the Levant, Ivory Coast and Sudanese West Africa, Djibouti and Fr. Indochina.
Italy loses it influence in Albania but thats about it.
The Ottoman's lose the Mid-East and Arabia but can hope for a new Empire of Influence in the Caucasus and perhaps Central Asia.
A-H survives for a while yet with a hegemony over the Balkan's, except Greece.
Germany gets alot of client's in Eastern Europe.
Early in the War is highly unlikely..so a late 1918 victory is probably the most likely. Sometime in the Fall. Germany willhave had to make substantial commitements to the Western Front to get a defeat and fall of France or at least apostion where France/Britain are willing to go to the table. If its later Bulgaria and the Ottomans (October) will have folded and A-H is heading towards a disaster at Vittorio Veneto or something similiar. Even if that doesn't happen the best the A-H can hope for is a stalemate vs the Italians without outside help. Given a need to support one of its allies...Germany will probably send troops to A-H before the Ottoman's
So assume victory is early to mid Fall...September say..they come to the table. The American entry will have to have been delayed so they are officially still not at War or the French and British would not even be talking.
officially then the Ottoman's and Bulgarian's are still in the fight. Mesopotamia and the Levant are occupied however and Bulgaria is under severe pressure from Greece. The Italians and A-H are basically stalemated but A-H has not suffered its humiliating disaster yet. B-L will be a fait accompli for the CP Asif they Entente and CP are sitting down to talk...The Entente knows that short of prolonging the War there is nothing they can do to undo it. We are assuming of course that the situation on the Western Front is such that The French feel they must concede defeat, otherwise why would they be talking. Thus Germany has basically gained a very large prfitable "Empire by proxy" if you will in the East. This is also going to colour the French/Italian and British negotiators.
For the Germans and A-H and their allies, they all know they are at the end of their rope...and it will be some time before resources from the East can come into play to save them...I doubt they will be intransigient if there is a chance that peace can be had on terms acceptabe to all.
Starting in the Pacific...as it is the easiest...Japan gives back Pulau, Germany forgoes any recompense for the loss of the remaining Micronesian islands and Tsingtao ( Japan will be handing this back shortly anyway to China so what difference does it make, perhaps it returns to China as part of the peace as a compromise If Germany can't have the place then neither will Japan, it just hastens the process that occurred OTL)...both save face. France cedes New Caledonia if Australia and NZ insist on keeping their acquisitions ( Britain will restrain them from preventing the German occupation). Germany is in no position to push for anything beyond this in the Pacific and should count themselves lucky to get it as the RN and Anzacs and Japanese can basically make it impossible for them to retake their Pacific possesions if they want, with little or no effort expended on their part.
In Africa, Germany can get Tanganyika back, its been held for the shortest time. German gets Kamerun and Togo back. SW. Africa stays with S. Afr. Dahomey is given to Germany along with the the southern portions of Fr. Eq. Africa ( East of the Congo ) to compensate. Belgian Congo becomes a Franco-Belgian co-Protectorate. Germany can by Sp. Eq. Guinea later if they like.
On the Eastern Front. B-L is recognized.
In the Balkans...I am not sure where the fronts are at this point so I would think though the settlement if it comes will be on the basis of possession.
Bulgaria gets Serb Macedonia and southern Dobruja. Treaty of Bucharest is reaffirmed. Bosnia gets its independence (under a Hapsburg dynasty, there has to be someone to sit in Sarajevo, compromise to the allies). Serbia, Montenegro and Albania get pro A-H Governments and their Monarchs may change though that would be unlikely..
Middle East...Mesopotamia and the Levant is lost to the Ottoman's. Without prolonging the war there is no way to get those territories back. For AHP's benefit....If agreement is reached regarding the West...East...Balkan and Italian theaters....Germany and A-H will not prolong the war and risk American entry ( they will favour the Entente remember) and risk losing their gains for acres of Ottoman desert and swampland. The Ottoman's can be compensated with a sphere of Influence in the Caucasus perhaps ( both Cis and Trans). depending on how things transpire with the Russian revolution...all of Central Asia is open as well perhaps...but that would be open to debate at the time of the talks...so perhaps the Ottoman's can be persuaded to let go of the middle East for promised compensation and support later.
The Middle East gets divided as per OTL between France and Britain. Perhaps an adjustment of the Northern Persian border in favour of the Ottomans but not alot.
In the West...return to the pre-War borders. Minor reparations by France to Germany. Minor Reparations from Italy and Serbia to A-H. France may offer to trade some of their colonial possesions for the return of A-L (German protectorates in Morocco...the French Levant (the Br. won't like it but probably won't prolong the War over it, and may encourage the Ottoman's to get it back instead of having the German presence in the Eastern Med.) Other French possessions that could go for this are Madagascar, Ivory Coast and French Guinea ( Fr. Indochina perhaps....The Brits and Japanese would have reservations, but does strengthening the French in Europe aid them in the long run against an Imperial Germany that is increasingly over reaching its power projection capabilities). The Germans probably won't go for this at all. A-L is more valuable than any of these colonies from an Economic point of view and easily more defendable. They will probably counter with demands for the remainder of Lorraine just so they vacate France to dissuade the French once and for all of attaining the laughable goal of acquiring A-L at this point. France will counter by offering one of these colonies or perhaps French Guiana simply to have them drop that demand for the remainder of Lorraine and lessen its reparations. Lets say French Guinea, French Guiana and Madagascar and a protectorate over Morrokko then and the Imperial Germans will withdraw to prewar and settle for reduced reparations.
There that just leaves the Russian Civil War to deal with and insuring the
Ottoman's get their promised sphere of interest.
The Washington Treaty will see Imp. Germany as a major player on par with Japan at least, but perhaps on par with USN and RN itself. The whole dynamic there is going to change somewhat.
Aside from major reparations there is no reason theat the Germans and A-H cannot accept this proposal. Italy and A-H return to prewar btw...
Britain gets off lightly but still has huge war debts to the American banks keeps its Dominions relatively happy. Given a stronger presence for the CP Canada could get a role in the Carribean and eastern N.Atl. this time around similiar to that of S.Afr and Australia and N.Z. postwar. Borden pushed for it but was declined by London OTL. Here there will be more bargaining strength for him. By turning over responsibility for even some of the minor Carribean islands will free up some of Britain's resources for use elsewhere against Imp. Germany (likely West and East Africa).
France gets a reduced Empire centred on smaller holdings in the Caribbean, North Africa, the Levant, Ivory Coast and Sudanese West Africa, Djibouti and Fr. Indochina.
Italy loses it influence in Albania but thats about it.
The Ottoman's lose the Mid-East and Arabia but can hope for a new Empire of Influence in the Caucasus and perhaps Central Asia.
A-H survives for a while yet with a hegemony over the Balkan's, except Greece.
Germany gets alot of client's in Eastern Europe.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
We've been over this a million times. There is no possibility whatsoever that the Ottomans lose anything if the CP win. Why on earth would the losing powers get half of the entire territory of one of the winning powers? Not going to happen, period.
Faeelin
Banned
What happens in India?
We tend to assume that India will stay as a British possession after the war, but is this certain?
I think a defeated Britain would be much more jittery about ruling this colony; without their empire, after all, they're clearly no match for Germany.
Meanwhile, OTL the secretary of state for India announced that Britain should move towards giving India responsible self-government in 1917; and then this was followed in 1919 by the Rowlatt Act, which allowed the British government to arrest anyone who was believed to be fomenting sedition without a trial, and led to the Amritsar Massacre.
This is in a victorious British Empire. I daresay things will be more tense in one which lost the Great War.
We tend to assume that India will stay as a British possession after the war, but is this certain?
I think a defeated Britain would be much more jittery about ruling this colony; without their empire, after all, they're clearly no match for Germany.
Meanwhile, OTL the secretary of state for India announced that Britain should move towards giving India responsible self-government in 1917; and then this was followed in 1919 by the Rowlatt Act, which allowed the British government to arrest anyone who was believed to be fomenting sedition without a trial, and led to the Amritsar Massacre.
This is in a victorious British Empire. I daresay things will be more tense in one which lost the Great War.
Again !!?
Man.... now this has just made me to wonder about how would the protagonists in RE series would feel about they being almost alone in a place or city that full of zombies....
p)If they gave it Dominion status, they would be having their cake and eating. Politically, it can be sold to Parliament that this is "just like South Africa only with fewer whites" so the necessary legislation should pass. Whether it will be enough for the Indian nats is another matter. There will certainly be no Dominion of Pakistan on the table.
As for continuing the War, Britain is down to three allies. 1: Japan who have no incentive to pull her weight. 2: China who is providing no combat troops at all. 3: Greece, a light weight. France, Russia, Serbia and Belgium are all out.
In contrast, The CP has Germany, Austro-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Bulgaria. With that as backing the Germans can at very least demand their colonies back (which is an easy concession for Britain to make because if she can take them this time, she can take them if WW2 breaks out), a slice of the French empire for herself plus return of the Ottoman territories.
If Britain decides to continue the war, the Greeks will cut loose before they get squashed and China could probably achieve her aim of removing European influence by diplomacy.
As for the Americans, where are they going to open a front apart from Greece? And if the Germans keep their sticky fingers out of Mexico there is even less incentive for Washington to send doughboys.
In such a situation, I think the British will go for peace. They will probably demand prewar borders in Belgium and France, which the Germans probably will give ( the British might want an independent Luxembourg, but the Germans won't accept that and in the end the British will agree with the Germans adding more 'German' people to Germany). The British will return most of the German colonies they captured, but some (new Guinea, Namibia) will perhaps be exchanged for some French and Belgian colonies. The British won't lose any territory, but will have to accept that Germany rules the European continent.
The British can even claim that they won the war, they entered it to safe the Belgians and Belgium still exists (noone outside the UK will believe it, but the British themselves might).
I totally agree with those who insist timing is everything. For example, if Germany wins late in the war do they win beore American troops arrive on the western front or when only some have arrived or almost as many as in OTL? The position the US will take towards the Empire will depend very much on how committed in blood and treasure they are in the war.
Also the Dominions will demand they keep the estwhile German colonies they now have. Australia (the colony of Queensland) annexed New Guinea against British wishes to prevent Germany taking it in the late nineteenth century. The new Federation will not hand back Papua under any circumstances.
Again how committed were the US? Depending on the level of their commitment they may very well be willing to back Australia and New Zealand and Canada against the UK. This would cause a dramatic political and constitutional crisis in Britain and in the individual Dominions.
Domestic politics in the Dominions and in the UK would undergo dramatic changes perhaps even culminating in civil strife. We got very close in the interwar years as it was to revolution and coups by rabid right wingers. An Imperial verson of 'fascism' may very well arise.
Also the Dominions will demand they keep the estwhile German colonies they now have. Australia (the colony of Queensland) annexed New Guinea against British wishes to prevent Germany taking it in the late nineteenth century. The new Federation will not hand back Papua under any circumstances.
Again how committed were the US? Depending on the level of their commitment they may very well be willing to back Australia and New Zealand and Canada against the UK. This would cause a dramatic political and constitutional crisis in Britain and in the individual Dominions.
Domestic politics in the Dominions and in the UK would undergo dramatic changes perhaps even culminating in civil strife. We got very close in the interwar years as it was to revolution and coups by rabid right wingers. An Imperial verson of 'fascism' may very well arise.