'Blank slates': Scarcely attested persons or nations you think deserve a timeline

[cincpac overboard]

Most timelines naturally focus on persons or political entities that are well documented historically. However, there are those enigmatic people and places that one figures must have had a definite impact on history but about which little written material survives, or was never created in the first place. One example from the western hemisphere would be the city of Teotihuacan, which at its height in 450 AD had a population of 150,000, the largest city in the Americas at the time. From its base in the Valley of Mexico it stretched its political and artistic influence as far away as the Highland Maya in Honduras. Sadly they left no written records of their own so their history has to be pieced together from archaeological studies.

Who and what are your favorite 'blank slates' that you would enjoy reading timelines about? How do you speculate they would influence well-attested persons and nations in an ATL?

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Who and what are your favorite 'blank slates' that you would enjoy reading timelines about? How do you speculate they would influence well-attested persons and nations in an ATL?

Definitely, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samo's_Empire - first Slavic state to ever exist, it killed Frankish ambitions to expand eastwards and halted Avar khaganate's expansion and than just stopped existing with very little written sources about it.
It somehow sticking together completely changes Frankish history (arguable one of the most important nations in the world) with Slavic rival that close to their core lands, German language won't probably make it east and Magyars might not settle in Carpathian Basin.

 

[GullibleCynic]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Cong'er would be my vote. While it's unlikely that she'd end up in any position of authority, let alone empress regnant of China, I find the slim possiblity intriguing

 

[DanMcCollum]

Definitely, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samo's_Empire - first Slavic state to ever exist, it killed Frankish ambitions to expand eastwards and halted Avar khaganate's expansion and than just stopped existing with very little written sources about it.
It somehow sticking together completely changes Frankish history (arguable one of the most important nations in the world) with Slavic rival that close to their core lands, German language won't probably make it east and Magyars might not settle in Carpathian Basin.

Literally beat me to this by a few minutes

I'd also add the Crimean Goths as a fascinating, yet not well attested, people who would make for amazing AH fodder.

Also, inspired by doing my PhD in Scotland: any of the Pictish states which across during and after the Roman period - especially the Ce (largely based on the fact that I live in their old heartland)

 

[Vinization]

Jason of Pherae could've unified Greece decades before Philip II accomplished this feat, had he not been assassinated in 370 BC. I wonder how different a Thessalian Empire would be from the Macedonian one.

Dionysius I of Syracuse was a ruthless tyrant who fought several wars with Carthage over control of Sicily. Had he managed to kick them out, he could've turned Syracuse into the heart of an empire, one perhaps capable of even eclipsing its Greek ancestors, just like how Carthage eclipsed the Phoenicians.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Literally beat me to this by a few minutes

I'd also add the Crimean Goths as a fascinating, yet not well attested, people who would make for amazing AH fodder.

Also, inspired by doing my PhD in Scotland: any of the Pictish states which across during and after the Roman period - especially the Ce (largely based on the fact that I live in their old heartland)

Well, with enough creativity you could combine both (Samo's Empire and Crimean Goths) in one timeline, surviving Samo's Empire would probably absorb Elbean Slavs and in IXth century, provided it could survive wars with Franks, could even make inroads to Scandinavia - I don't see it conquering all of it, but IMHO taking control of the Straits area would be doable, Obodrites almost did that with little resources in comparison to Samo's empire, maybe we will see partitions of Denmark between Franks and Wendish Empire (considering Fredegar called Samo: "rex Winedorum", I think that if "Samoland" developed ethnic consciousness beyond just having a single monarch, most probably etnonym "Wend" will be used and in Latin probably it'd be called "Regnum Winedorum/Venedorum") and stronger emigration of Scandinavians to Volga route (I don't see "Wendish Empire" conquering all of lands Rus' had IOTL, the farthest east I can see them reaching is Dniester river and it's surroundings, maybe Dnieper if they're lucky, tho that would block Bulgarians their inroads to Balkans, which would force Asparukh group to settle somewhere else) and that stronger emigration could prompt bunch of Scandinavians to go to Crimea where they'd boost Gothic population because of similar language and some Scandinavian-Gothic warlord could take over the island for himself and boom you have Gothic state.

 

[Mildtryth]

Philip of Rouvres - While there's a fair number of surviving Burgundy timelines around here, i have never seen any exploring what happens if he lives - he was already set to marry Margaret III of Flanders before Philip II, and also held Auvergne and Boulogne.

 

[eliamartin65]

Philip of Rouvres - While there's a fair number of surviving Burgundy timelines around here, i have never seen any exploring what happens if he lives - he was already set to marry Margaret III of Flanders before Philip II, and also held Auvergne and Boulogne.

Philippe de Rouvres did marry Marguerite of Flanders, but he died without consummating the marriage.

 

[Citrakayah]

Kuhikugu certainly deserves a timeline of its own. Pre-Columbian city in the middle of the rainforest, a fairly large one, but there's no written records of it. Not sure how developed the oral traditions around the place still are, either.

 

[cincpac overboard]

inspired by doing my PhD in Scotland: any of the Pictish states which across during and after the Roman period - especially the Ce (largely based on the fact that I live in their old heartland)

Is Ce the state that contains the Tap o' Noth hillfort? A timeline where Ce rather than Fortriu becomes the dominant Pictish kingdom and Tap o' Noth/Rhynie becomes the nexus of a pagan state would be amazing.

 

[DanMcCollum]

Is Ce the state that contains the Tap o' Noth hillfort? A timeline where Ce rather than Fortriu becomes the dominant Pictish kingdom and Tap o' Noth/Rhynie becomes the nexus of a pagan state would be amazing.

Close, but i think Top O'North would have been in Foetiu or close to the border. Ce (at least bases on what ive read) was likely celebered on Bennachie (which even contains the word Ce) and was pretty much modern day Aberdeenshire. Though the region seems to have had a fair bit of early Christian activity (I actually did some research into local early medieval Saints here at one point, and there looks to have been a lot of native Pictish missionary work up here, from further south and then an added wave of Gaelic missionaries from further West).

It's a shame we know so little about that era though, because it's absolutely fascinating.

 

[backwards]

Literally beat me to this by a few minutes

I'd also add the Crimean Goths as a fascinating, yet not well attested, people who would make for amazing AH fodder.

Also, inspired by doing my PhD in Scotland: any of the Pictish states which across during and after the Roman period - especially the Ce (largely based on the fact that I live in their old heartland)

Hell yeah! As a Scot I can't help but noticing how little we actually know about the Picts and the culture and language is different north of Stirling than it is south of it. I suppose its made more obvious by modern voting patterns and the fact that the South-West and South-East is quite economically tied to England, never-mind that we share our ITV station with Carlisle. A Scotland that isn't quite Scotland is interesting to me, throw in Cumbria and Northumberland convincingly and I'm absolutely there for that.

As for Crimea, anything that involves a different outcome than we got is worth a serious look. It changes Crimea, Russia, Ukraine, the Black Sea basin and removes a Eurovision winner from existence. There's a lot to say there me thinks....

 

[Sarufiyyun]

I think a timeline covering the Kingdom of the Cimmerian Bosphorus especially during late antiquity and somehow surviving the barbarian invasions would be an interesting one under the right hands.

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

Well, with enough creativity you could combine both (Samo's Empire and Crimean Goths) in one timeline, surviving Samo's Empire would probably absorb Elbean Slavs and in IXth century, provided it could survive wars with Franks, could even make inroads to Scandinavia - I don't see it conquering all of it, but IMHO taking control of the Straits area would be doable, Obodrites almost did that with little resources in comparison to Samo's empire, maybe we will see partitions of Denmark between Franks and Wendish Empire (considering Fredegar called Samo: "rex Winedorum", I think that if "Samoland" developed ethnic consciousness beyond just having a single monarch, most probably etnonym "Wend" will be used and in Latin probably it'd be called "Regnum Winedorum/Venedorum") and stronger emigration of Scandinavians to Volga route (I don't see "Wendish Empire" conquering all of lands Rus' had IOTL, the farthest east I can see them reaching is Dniester river and it's surroundings, maybe Dnieper if they're lucky, tho that would block Bulgarians their inroads to Balkans, which would force Asparukh group to settle somewhere else) and that stronger emigration could prompt bunch of Scandinavians to go to Crimea where they'd boost Gothic population because of similar language and some Scandinavian-Gothic warlord could take over the island for himself and boom you have Gothic state.

When my phone is fixed, I will make a Samo's Empire TL.

 

[Bregil]

Always find Cahokia and the Mississippian civilization interesting. It could be argued that they are mentioned in "The Red Road" of the Delaware nation but even if that is true, it's only a passing mention.

 

[Collondi]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhu_Nuwas This guy was an Arab king who converted to Judaism and started persecuting Christians to distance himself from Axsum, before being conquered by them. It would be interesting to read about a surviving Jewish Yemeni state and how it would deal with the powers that surround it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Furius_Sabinius_Aquila_Timesitheus As I discussed in https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...of-third-century-crisis.546016/#post-24556049 this thread with @John Fredrick Parker, Timesetheus, regent to emperor Gordian III, Praetorian prefect and all around most powerful person in his day before he died suddenly. From what little we know about him he seemed to have done quite a bit in the few years he was in power to try to alleviate the problems that would cause the Crisis of the Third Century and may have been able to provide the strong leadership Rome needed at that time.

 

[Tyler96]

Find the sons of Edward the Elder’s second marriage quite interesting, and could potentially throw a wrench into the process of English unification - Aelfweard was his chosen successor and reigned in Wessex for a very brief period after his death, Edwin seems to have been the focus of prolonged dissent against Athelstan culminating in him dying mysteriously on a boat whilst being sent (fleeing?) into exile.

All the many sons of Ethelred Unraed are also interesting - there’s the eldest and chosen heir Athelstan, whose survival might have impacted the campaigns of 1016; Eadwig, the last surviving son of the first marriage, who was perceived to present enough of a threat for Canute to have him killed; and Alfred, who seems to have had a rather different personality to his full brother Edward the Confessor, and whose death in an abortive campaign in 1036 may have led to the ill feelings underlying the domestic tensions of Edward’s reign.

There’s also a whole bunch of Viking ’kings’ who are the blankest of slates and are known only from Chronicle notices of their deaths - Bacgseg at Reading in 871; Eohric (probably of East Anglia) at the Holme in 902; Halfdan, Eowils, and (in some versions) Ivar (probably of York) at Tettenhall in 910; an unnamed king at Tempsford in 918 - or numismatics, most notably three kings in York/Danish Northumbria around the turn of the 9th/10th centuries - Siefred(us), Cnut, and ‘Airdeconut’ (a mangling of Hathacnut).

You also have a Viking king who maybe didn’t actually exist.

The northern English polity centred on Bamburgh is also fascinating. As the 10th and into the 11th century they can be tracked with increasingly clarity, as a result of their intermittently holding the Earldom of all Northumbria and their celebrated feud with the family of Thurbrand the Hold, but their early members, prior to the expansion of West Saxon royal authority into the north, are very hazy - Irish sources record the deaths of ‘kings of the Northern English/Saxons’ in 913 (Eadwulf) and 934 (‘Adulf mcEtulf’ - possibly a mangling of Aethelwulf son of Eadwulf). The death of the latter is speculated to be linked to Athelstan’s campaign in Scotland in 934, but precise order of events unclear.

 

[jacob ningen]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhu_Nuwas This guy was an Arab king who converted to Judaism and started persecuting Christians to distance himself from Axsum, before being conquered by them. It would be interesting to read about a surviving Jewish Yemeni state and how it would deal with the powers that surround it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Furius_Sabinius_Aquila_Timesitheus As I discussed in https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...of-third-century-crisis.546016/#post-24556049 this thread with @John Fredrick Parker, Timesetheus, regent to emperor Gordian III, Praetorian prefect and all around most powerful person in his day before he died suddenly. From what little we know about him he seemed to have done quite a bit in the few years he was in power to try to alleviate the problems that would cause the Crisis of the Third Century and may have been able to provide the strong leadership Rome needed at that time

I keep thinking but not doing Dhu Nuwas wank without the Najran massacre.

 

[Kerney]

I've wanted to do something involving mental health in the 19th century. I've thought of somehow pairing a surviving Patrick Cleburne (former pharmacist and Confederate General) with Quannah Parker (Comanche War Chief/ founder of the Native American Church) in a way that deals ptsd treatment.

I also am interested in the early English Church. I recently read an interpretation of the Synod of Whitby where the Roman party 'won' in a way that limited the expansion of said Roman party.

 

[Goats-&-Bolts]

First, I’d like to leave some links to previous threads that asked similar questions (just in case people are curious):

Favourite Obscure Civilizations?

What are some civilizations (culture groups also work) that you never see get talked about, let alone have TLs written about them? The nations that you think are awesome, but don't seem to be very well known. Bonus points if you can convince someone to write a TL about them. ;) If this...

www.alternatehistory.com

Favorite random nation, culture, ethnic group, or religion?

Do you have a secret love for the Norte Chico civilization? The Luwians? The Bo people maybe? How about the Ket? Or another random people that you think deserve more attention or are underappreciated by the AH.com community? This is the thread for you then. The way this works is simple. Tell...

www.alternatehistory.com

As for my answer to the OP, some “blank slate” civilizations about which we sadly know little include (in no particular order):

1) BMAC/Oxus River Civilization — an early bronze-age Central Asian civilization; arguably the 5th Great River Civilization (aka it is in the same category as the Mesopotamian, Indus Valley, Ancient Egyptian and the Yellow River civilization). Material goods found in BMAC archeological sites show that the Oxus civilization was at a centre of a vast trading network stretching from the Mediterranean to the Indus. But the BMAC civilization seemed to have lasted only 600 years or so and then fell suddenly without a clear trace, only being rediscovered in the second half of the 20th century.

(This one almost feels like cheating since, while obscure among the general public, the Oxus River civilization is probably one of the best known “lost civilization” in history nerd circles)

2) Cucuteni–Trypillia Culture — pre-Indo European culture of the Balkans boasting urban settlements rivalling in size those of the early Fertile Crescent civs. Probably best know among history nerds for the strange practice of cyclically burn down and rebuilding its own settlements every few decades. Left behind distinct pottery and clay figurines of uncertain purpose. May or may not have had domesticated horses, the wheel and proto-writing.

3) Urbanized Societies of the Amazon Basin — new satellite finds and LIDAR data shows that the Amazon jungle is hiding the remains of great cities, complete with monumental architecture and pyramids. As Chris Fisher (an archeologist at the Colorado State University) puts it: “The only problem [with ancient Amazon cities] is that [their] architecture was made from mud brick. So while at the time it was as fantastic-looking as anything in the Maya region, the Maya monuments have endured because they had limestone, while these just weren’t as durable”; also unlike the Aztec or Maya civilization of Central America the cities of the Amazon seem to have fallen before the arrival of the Europeans.