'Blank slates': Scarcely attested persons or nations you think deserve a timeline
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A society which is a relative blank slate to work with could be the Rus Khaganate with how it was possibly the very first state which would eventually give rise to Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus yet is sparsely attested even compared to the Kievan Rus. A TL which deals with the Rus Khaganate could create a *Russia, which, while still dominated by East Slavs, is unrecognizable to a Russian/Ukrainian/Belarusian of OTL in its culture, society, and religion with how poorly attested it is.
On that note, interestingly, his "election" as Emperor was arguably the last act of the Roman Senate as an institution (if we consider the Senate in Constantinople to be a continuation of the original Roman Senate) that we know of, though the Senate itself might have nominally existed after Constantinople was reclaimed in 1261 for a while before fading away.
a TL about Chiang Kai Shek, YAn Xishan, or the Hundreds Day reforms being successful is sorely desired by myself
Yes!
That rather neatly fits an alt-Scotland scenario too. A kingdom of Northumberland-Bernicia going north to Edinburgh and Livingston and west to Dumfries following the River Nith towards New Cumnock and back round through parts of South Lanarkshire say an axis via Douglas and Lanark to Bathgate could be pretty cool. The relationships with Strathclyde-Galloway, Mann, Alba and some variation of Anglia along the Cheshire to Lincolnshire axis would be key.
My guess is the English don't get as involved in Ireland and maybe echo and intermarry with the French more and maybe end up something like Brittany so no Hundred Years War. Mann and Strathclyde-Galloway become more overtly Irish/Celtic than irl. The Welsh position could go either way, they could get completely Anglicised and integrated more extensively into England or maybe they unify as a proud Celtic land and end up with the River Severn at say Shrewsbury as their border. I would say Alba stays very much it's own thing, possibly integrating the Hebrides and Northern Isles, potentially with a more overtly Pictish influence a la @DanMcCollum's thought above.
It seems doubtful in this case that the UK then ever exists at all, so the implications for the rest of world politically, economically, culturally and linguistically are absolutely immense.
Kingdom of Middag. And also a surviving Austronesian/Austro-Tai state in mainland China, mostly Fujian.
I think a good counterpart to a Northumberland-Bernicia timeline would be a Strathclyde-centered timeline where the kingdom comes to own all of northern England west of the Pennines, down to Liverpool. By all rights IOTL Strathclyde should not even have arisen in the aftermath of the sacking of Dumbarton Rock in 870, yet somehow they reformed themselves and expanded into Galloway and Cumberland in the 10th and 11th centuries. A timeline detailing the redemption of the last kingdom of the northern Britons would be a great addition to this forum.
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I’d like the Proto-Vietic Proto-State located in modern day Northern Vietnam centered around Cổ Loa before being conquered Zhao Tuo’s Nanyue State (this is talked extensively in Nam C. Kim’s archeological book). With how much being a Chinese Frontier Province really laid the groundworks for the Vietnam we know today. An already independent indigenous polity will definitely change history tremendously, though extensive sinicization would still happen.
Yep, that would work too. Presumably that evolves into something semi-Welsh but not quite, possibly incorporating Mann, perhaps not.
We are a strange nation the UK, five different peoples (counting the Cornish) currently, wielded together by a combination of luck, trade, conquest and treaty. It could have gone a 100 different ways, we could have turned into an island group too busy fighting each other to do much else or go anywhere else and yet it didn't, with almost incalcuable consequences for good and for ill....
My thought about a big Bernicia was partly personal. I was born in Dumfries, one of the quirks of the place was that it isn't just one place, the western side of the Nith at the Devorgilla Bridge was known as Maxwelltown and was a separate burgh and part of Kirkcudbrightshire, whilst the eastern side has always been Dumfries. In a big Bernicia scenario, they would literally be in different countries and so the local motto "A Loreburn" which translates as roughly "A muddy stream!" or "get to the stream that marks the burgh boundaries, there's trouble afoot" takes on a whole different meaning. They were merged after a local vote in October 1929 partly to cut down on local administrative costs (they could get rid of one Council and a Court) and partly to consolidate some local services like schools and local infrastructure. There was already a lot of river crossings for practical reasons, three sets of kids crossed the river daily to go to school (Maxwelltown kids going to Dumfries Academy if they passed their 11+, Dumfries Catholic girls going to the Convent School and Catholic boys from Maxwelltown to St Joseph's College), plus textile workers heading to Rosefield Mill (the state of the buildings is a local scandal), Catholics crossed the river to go to Church on Sundays and Dumfries football fans crossed to Maxwelltown to make their weekly pilgrimage to see Queen of the South FC play at Palmerston Park. A big Bernicia might throw that up in the air fundamentally changing the local relationships and the culture on both sides of the river and my grandparents would all be on the other side of the river on what would still be Kirkcudbrightshire and thus a different country.
Just speaking from a very local and small level, no amalgamation counts I think. I wonder how many other towns or cities merged with other places to form bigger polities and whether it would have changed anything for them if they didn't. Lines on the map matters, but sometimes the lack of them matters even more. London without the GLC innovations in the 1960s has some potential - Red Ken having less area to control might have interesting implications vis a vis his battles with Mrs Thatcher, does she still kill it if say its only Middlesex County Council or a north of the Thames entity? Where do Kent and Surrey actually end? Um....
I have done a lot of reading about the era of the Warring States in China and the long unification process start by Qin culminating in the bloody last Wars of Unification.
The Qin Dynasty was short lived and the rebellion and the New Han against the New Chu wars were even more destructive.
An interesting TL will be the Qin Dynasty surviving with an able Second Emperor under the guidance of Li Si and others competent Ministers as him.
The Qin Dynasty will probably continue to expand, probably mostly in the South and the terrific deportation of internal population will cement national unity in the Empire centuries before it happened in OTL.
The Qin Dynasty was short lived and the rebellion and the New Han against the New Chu wars were even more destructive.
An interesting TL will be the Qin Dynasty surviving with an able Second Emperor under the guidance of Li Si and others competent Ministers as him.
The Qin Dynasty will probably continue to expand, probably mostly in the South and the terrific deportation of internal population will cement national unity in the Empire centuries before it happened in OTL.
Eochaid and Giric @Tyler96? I thought it was unclear in the surviving record just what their deal was beyond some kind of rivalry. I would say that gives us a blank slate within a broadly open playing field where they could be just about anything.
What about a scenario where what is the UK and Ireland irl remains a patchwork of smaller states and only unifies much later retaining much more intense cultural and linguistic differences, a bit like Spain? With all the tensions that come with that....
What about a scenario where what is the UK and Ireland irl remains a patchwork of smaller states and only unifies much later retaining much more intense cultural and linguistic differences, a bit like Spain? With all the tensions that come with that....
That would be an excellent timeline as there are very few that deal with pre-Han China. I think an interesting contrast to this timeline would be one in which the state of Qin doesn't conquer the Shu kingdom of the Sichuan Basin. In relative isolation the Shu would continue to develop their distinct culture, while the Qin, deprived of the resources of Sichuan might remain a regional power. How a longer period of Chinese disunity would affect culture broadly would be interesting to explore.
I've often speculated about how this patchwork might be achieved with a POD in the 1st century with the survival of the Brigantes tribe as a Roman client. If they truly were as territorially extensive as ancient authors describe them, they could develop into a powerful state centered in Yorkshire, wealthy from trade with the Romans and receiving valuable military experience through service as auxiliaries in the legions. All the while they would be copying Roman governmental forms and becoming a more centralized state. Should Rome abandon Britain around the same time as they did OTL, I could see Anglo-Saxon kingdoms being established in they southeast of England, but with control of the Midlands being contested between them and the Brigantian state. The Severn might serve as the boundary between the Anglo-Saxons and a patchwork of proto-Welsh states.
After re-reading the OP first post and every others contribution to this thread, a Qin Dynasty that will continue to develop is maybe too well known in history and isn't a "blank state".
So I have another proposition in the same period and nearly the same area.
Around the time of the end of "Warring States" Era and the beginning of the Qin Empire, the Xiongnu were successful in their wars against a steppe nation known as the Yuezhi or the Ordos culture who seems to an Indo-European people who live as far east as the Ordos region, north of the State of Qin.
Perhaps, if the Yuezhi-Xiongnu wars saw a victory of the Yuezhi, the steppe nation threatening the Ancient Zhongguo will be a eurasian nation with strong ties to others Indo-European steppe people living in the West.
In ancient Chinese books, the Yuezhi are described as less warlike as the cruel Xiongnu and more fond of trade relations. Perhaps the Silk Road will be established earlier and the Warring State uniting the Zhongguo will be more integrated with Central Asian and Indo-European culture. Perhaps China will experiment a more widespread Buddhism or a Monotheist religion coming from somewhere in the Middle East... At this time, the territory of Afghanistan form a Hellenistic Kingdom of Greek influence Bactria and Buddhism was successful in these regions.
Very possible. I am just taking in the scale of the changes suggested here. As a brief overview, the development of the English language, the default lingua franca changes dramatically and doesn’t become the main second language spoken globally. The exact circumstances that allowed the industrial revolution to take place in the UK is unlikely given that there’s not going to be the same UK, so I'll guess and suggests that industrialisation starts in Northern and Western Germany part funded through Dutch and possibly Swedish banks instead. And naturally the British-descended nations the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and to a much lesser extent, South Africa don’t develop the same way, to say nothing of the other ex-colonies or current Overseas Territories whose histories are basically completely different. The Channel Islands remain French, Gibraltar stays Spanish, Malta becomes part of Italy eventually having been part of the Kingdom of Sardinia before - and that's just for starters.
As a guess we would have up to 11 states covering the whole of the Anglo-Celtic Islands in their place with 7 of them covering Great Britain itself:
1) Dumnonia – Cornwall, Devon, Somerset up to the Somerset Levels and western Dorset probably up to the River Stour with a capital at Exeter.
2) Anglia – southern and south-eastern England with a capital around London. The Anglian church is attached to Roman rites.
3) Mercia – a buffer zone in the Midlands up to the southern shore of the Humber Estuary and the eastern shore of the Rivers Severn and Trent with the River Mersey as a northern border. The capital is probably somewhere like Lichfield. Mercia is probably highly Anglian culturally and the Mercian church is likely attached to Roman rites.
4) Cymru – a greater Welsh heartland probably formed from a variety of sub-kingdoms which reach out as far as the Rivers Severn and Trent in the English West Midlands. Wales potentially unifies as a single Kingdom around 1057 under Gruffydd ap Llywelyn with a capital somewhere like Rhyl. The Cymru Church is a Celtic rite church.
5) Northumbria – a culturally mixed state combining Viking, Anglian and Britonnic traits north of the Rivers Humber in the south-east and Mersey in the south-west stretching up to Edinburgh in the north and along the line of the River Nith through Dumfriesshire, East Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire to the north-west. The capital may well be moved to Newcastle from Bamburgh eventually. The Northumbrian Church is a Celtic rite Church.
6) Strathclyde – a Gaelic-Nordic kingdom along the west and south-west of Scotland including the parts of the Hebrides and Mann. The capital is Dumbarton. The Strathclyde Church is a Celtic rite Church.
7) Alba – a Pictish-Gaelic-Nordic kingdom covering the north and north-east of Scotland and has its capital around Inverness. Alba is the most obviously Nordic kingdom but becomes Christian a little later and is part of the Celtic Church.
My guess is that Ireland will follow a roughly parallel experience as irl until the 12th century. Given a lack of unity in England, it seems unlikely there will be serious English presence in Ireland, which will obviously have a significant impact there. I am guessing some form of consolidation will take place meaning that something vaguely similar to the four provinces take shape using rivers and mountain ranges as natural borders. I am going to guess that some form of the following kingdoms are formed:
8) Ulaid (Ulster, capital Downpatrick; including the lands of the Northern Uí Néill)
9) Connacht (capital Roscommon; including lands of western Bréifne)
10) Munster (capital, Limerick; probably including substantial parts of southern Leinster and Osraige)
11) Mide (capital Dublin; includes parts of northern Leinster, most of Airgíalia and eastern Bréifne)
Under these conditions, the Synod of Whitby may well take place under different circumstances or arrive at a different decision in 664. It’s possible that in a post-Roman, Medieval Britain which is very different to our own for whatever reason, Celtic Christianity has a chance to develop in its own way, evolving into something like the Greek Catholic Church in Eastern Europe who is attached to but not part of the Roman Church. This could have significant consequences for foreign relations and whether Latin would become the language of law rather than a formalised version of Gaelic is another matter.
The Anglo-Celtic Islands may end up becoming a rather niche place with unfavourable weather speaking obscure languages, visited by relatively few and too busy fighting amongst themselves, unable to unite under an sort of shared purpose rather than looking outward for good and for ill as we did irl.
As a guess we would have up to 11 states covering the whole of the Anglo-Celtic Islands in their place with 7 of them covering Great Britain itself:
1) Dumnonia – Cornwall, Devon, Somerset up to the Somerset Levels and western Dorset probably up to the River Stour with a capital at Exeter.
2) Anglia – southern and south-eastern England with a capital around London. The Anglian church is attached to Roman rites.
3) Mercia – a buffer zone in the Midlands up to the southern shore of the Humber Estuary and the eastern shore of the Rivers Severn and Trent with the River Mersey as a northern border. The capital is probably somewhere like Lichfield. Mercia is probably highly Anglian culturally and the Mercian church is likely attached to Roman rites.
4) Cymru – a greater Welsh heartland probably formed from a variety of sub-kingdoms which reach out as far as the Rivers Severn and Trent in the English West Midlands. Wales potentially unifies as a single Kingdom around 1057 under Gruffydd ap Llywelyn with a capital somewhere like Rhyl. The Cymru Church is a Celtic rite church.
5) Northumbria – a culturally mixed state combining Viking, Anglian and Britonnic traits north of the Rivers Humber in the south-east and Mersey in the south-west stretching up to Edinburgh in the north and along the line of the River Nith through Dumfriesshire, East Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire to the north-west. The capital may well be moved to Newcastle from Bamburgh eventually. The Northumbrian Church is a Celtic rite Church.
6) Strathclyde – a Gaelic-Nordic kingdom along the west and south-west of Scotland including the parts of the Hebrides and Mann. The capital is Dumbarton. The Strathclyde Church is a Celtic rite Church.
7) Alba – a Pictish-Gaelic-Nordic kingdom covering the north and north-east of Scotland and has its capital around Inverness. Alba is the most obviously Nordic kingdom but becomes Christian a little later and is part of the Celtic Church.
My guess is that Ireland will follow a roughly parallel experience as irl until the 12th century. Given a lack of unity in England, it seems unlikely there will be serious English presence in Ireland, which will obviously have a significant impact there. I am guessing some form of consolidation will take place meaning that something vaguely similar to the four provinces take shape using rivers and mountain ranges as natural borders. I am going to guess that some form of the following kingdoms are formed:
8) Ulaid (Ulster, capital Downpatrick; including the lands of the Northern Uí Néill)
9) Connacht (capital Roscommon; including lands of western Bréifne)
10) Munster (capital, Limerick; probably including substantial parts of southern Leinster and Osraige)
11) Mide (capital Dublin; includes parts of northern Leinster, most of Airgíalia and eastern Bréifne)
Under these conditions, the Synod of Whitby may well take place under different circumstances or arrive at a different decision in 664. It’s possible that in a post-Roman, Medieval Britain which is very different to our own for whatever reason, Celtic Christianity has a chance to develop in its own way, evolving into something like the Greek Catholic Church in Eastern Europe who is attached to but not part of the Roman Church. This could have significant consequences for foreign relations and whether Latin would become the language of law rather than a formalised version of Gaelic is another matter.
The Anglo-Celtic Islands may end up becoming a rather niche place with unfavourable weather speaking obscure languages, visited by relatively few and too busy fighting amongst themselves, unable to unite under an sort of shared purpose rather than looking outward for good and for ill as we did irl.
