Best battleship post 1930

As many of you may know, I have an interest in naval matters. Thought it may be a fun idea to try and compare the battleships post the Washington Treaty, but also to include any that were laid down but not completed.

This gives us a list of:

US
6 Iowa Class(actually three classes of two since BB61-62, BB63-64 and BB65-66 were actually built to different specs)
4 South Dakota Class
2 North Carolina Class
Let’s throw in 3 Alaska Class just for Calbear, since he loves them so much

UK
2 Lion Class
Vanguard

5 KGV Class

Germany
2 H Class
2 Bismarck Class
2 Scharnhorst Class
3 Deutschland Class

France
3 Richelieu Class
2 Strasbourg Class

Italy
4 Littorio Class(again actually two separate Classes, last two were different)

Japan
4 Yamato Class(again the last two were different)

Soviet Union
4 Sovetsky Soyuz Class

Now consider two things. Firstly, obviously, which of these is the best combat ship one on one and why? You can assess this by what ships are available in 1941 and in a hypothetical 1946 when all are completed.

Secondly, what design represents the best value for money? Let’s not into whether battleships in general represent good value for money, no one cares about that since this is a theoretical exercise.

Value for money equals construction cost, ability to carry out mission, range, versatility (eg AA escorts), vulnerability, running costs, seaworthiness and steadiness as a gun platform and so on as well as guns, armour and defensive systems
 
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That's North Carolina-class, not Washington-class battleships.

And for my vote, I'd have to go for the South Dakota class for doing the most with the limited tonnage available, as they were still treaty battleships limited to the available tonnage.

Also, if we're looking at the unlimited/unbuilt category, I'd pick the Montana class, as she'd share fire control with the Iowa class and their gun performance, while at the same time being sufficiently armored to protect against its own guns (which no other US battleship could do). Its throw weight would be greater than that of Yamato, even, and its antiaricraft/secondary gun system I feel would be superior (with the dual 5"/54 guns replacing the older 5"/38) and certainly had better targeting. The only limiting factor here is speed.
 

SsgtC

Banned
For me, it's a toss up between the SoDaks and the Iowas. The Iowa was a better overall ship, but the SoDaks were exceptionally well balanced ships. In a pinch, I'd go with the Iowas though. They're up to 6 knots faster, have 16"/50s verses the older 16"/45s on the SoDaks, more 5"/38s, a sightly improved armor scheme and were far more comfortable ships for their crews, not being nearly as cramped as the SoDaks.

Now, as Luminous said, if we're going to include ships that never got laid down, I'd go with the Montanas. Slightly slower, but 12x16" guns and much heavier armor along with the improved secondaries more than make up for that. Really wish they had been built
 
It is probably pertinent to point out that in terms of cost the Iowa's cost around 100 million USD. Vanguard was cheap, only 46 million USD, but of course the guns were cheaper as they only needed modernisation. The Lion Class BB's cost would have been around 60 to 65 million USD. French Richelieu was 70-72 million. Not sure about the others. SOuth Dakotas were 77 million.
 
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16"/50s verses the older 16"/45s on the SoDaks
I may be mistaken but I seem to recall that there were issues with 16"/50s thinner walls causing the barrels to vibrate badly when fired which negatively impacted shell dispersion. I think their only saving graces were the better fire control as installed on the Iowas. All else considered, I think a 16"/45 is the more reliable weapon. Shame though, because I love the 16"/50.
 
Since I started this thread I guess I should weigh in. Let's get rid of those I think are quite poor and why.

Yamato Class. Much written about to be sure. Poor quality armour really compared to that used in British or American ships. Fuel hogs. Average speed. If deployed in 1942 they may have been effective. BY 1945 their fire control was woefully inadequate. Considering the massive cost(far more than any other ship), for me it is a big NO. If you spend that much and produce a ship that is still inferior in 1945 to a South Dakota Class, for example, then to my mind you have failed.

Bismarck Class. A poor design, what is with the separate AA and secondary armaments? Put out of action far to easily in her final battle with Rodney and KGV. Terrible AA suite, 4.1's not even protected from strafing. Underwater protection was a dated design. All this only carrying 8x15 inch on a hull 8,000 tons heaver than KGV or South Dak. NO

Alaska Class. Expansive, neither fish nor fowl really. Cannot fight true battleships and hope to survive and far too expensive as cruiser killers. NO

Sovetsky Soyuz Class. Huge, expensive and with second grade armour. NO

Deutschland Class. Too many compromises to achieve a tonnage reduction. NO

Littorio Class. Very poor range. Apalling AA suite. Pugliese underwater protection not really a success. NO

That leaves to my mind as fair value, effective ships for the price:

US
6 Iowa Class(actually three classes of two since BB61-62, BB63-64 and BB65-66 were actually built to different specs)
4 South Dakota Class
2 North Carolina Class

UK
2 Lion Class
Vanguard

5 KGV Class

Germany
2 H Class
2 Scharnhorst Class

France
3 Richelieu Class
2 Strasbourg Class
 
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We already have CombinedFleet's Battleship Comparison: http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm
I'll work from that and I'm putting it here so nobody thinks I stole anything.

In terms of raw firepower, Yamato's 460mm guns are clearly the leader, but they are certainly not the most efficient guns. Four 16" guns are in the race here: US 16"/45 Mark 6 (North Carolina, South Dakota), US 16"/50 Mark 7 (Iowa), RN 16"/45 Mark II (Lion), and KM 40.6cm/52 SK C/34 (H class). I think we can quite fairly judge these guns simply based on long-range deck penetration, which is governed by shell weight and muzzle velocity. The German gun had a very light AP shell and high muzzle velocity, giving 5.0" of penetration at 30,000 yards. The British gun had a light shell but lower muzzle velocity, giving 5.73" of penetration at 30,000 yards. The higher muzzle velocity of the German shell would also contribute to reduced accuracy. The American guns fired the same super-heavy AP shell, but the lower muzzle velocity of the shorter Mark 6 gave that gun better deck penetration than the Mark 7, 7.62" vs 6.65", due to higher striking angles (closer to vertical). The extra range of the Mark 7 guns likely compensated for the decreased penetration, although long-range radar-guided gunnery was extremely difficult at this time. Therefore, I'll call the competition for 16" gun a tie between the Mark 6 and the Mark 7. Four 15" guns are competing: MN 380mm/45 M1935 (Richelieu), KM 38cm/52 SK C/34 (Bismarck), RM 381mm/50 M1934 (Littorio), and RN 15"/42 Mark I (Vanguard). There was a concept for a 15"/45 for the KGV, but that never saw any real design. Right away, I can eliminate the German gun for having too high muzzle velocity and too little shell weight. I know the gun and the ship it went on was designed to a short-range, limited-visibility knife fight in the North Sea, but that's not the kind of thing you send a battleship out to do by the time WWII came around. The Italian gun has excellent specs, with great range and acceptable deck penetration (compared to the German gun), but its muzzle velocity was high enough to limit round counts below international norms and it was only accurate if the shells were made properly to exacting specifications, which doesn't happen in Italy. The French gun also has a problem in that the muzzle velocity it needs to attain long range negatively impacts deck penetration, but it does not suffer too much compared to the gold standard. The clear winner in the 15" gun range, even after two decades, is the British gun, with excellent penetration, reliability, and accuracy in return for range, although I think there exists a hard limit on practical 15" gun range at about 38,000 yards. There is only one 14" gun I'm going to consider, the RN 14"/45 Mark VII on the KGV. This gun had armor-piercing performance almost comparable to the German 38cm guns. The upgraded US 14"/50 Mark 7, which went on the New Mexicos and Tennessees and was going to go on the North Carolinas before the escalator clause, actually had superior armor-piercing performance than the British 14" gun.

Essentially, these firepower rankings limit our options for best ship to the US battleships, which are clearly ahead, the British battleships, which might be able to make up the ground they've lost, and the Richelieu, which I think was one of the most underrated battleships of WWII. The Iowas and South Dakotas carried essentially the same armor protection and were somewhat more heavily armored than the North Carolinas, so we can eliminate those two from contention. All three British battleships (KGV, Vanguard, and 1938 Lion) share the same armor profile, which focuses more heavily on citadel protection while accepting slightly less armor on the gun turrets and barbettes. I know the KGVs, however, had among the worst torpedo protection of all the Treaty battleships, which contributed to the loss of Prince of Wales to torpedo bombers. Vanguard and the Lions certainly had redesigned and upgraded torpedo protection, though I don't know how much additional protection could be provided on what was essentially the same hull. The Richelieus carried an armor scheme somewhat between the relative extremes of the American and British battleships, but apparently also carried the most efficient torpedo protection ever put to sea. A similar system on Dunkerque protected that ship from 1.5 tons of depth charges exploding alongside at Mers-el-Kebir. The Dunkerques and Richelieus carried very deep torpedo protection, rivaled only by the Yamatos and the Littorio's relatively ineffective systems.

This analysis leaves us with the Iowas, the South Dakotas, Vanguard, the Lions, and the Richelieus. Although the Iowas were excellent ships, they were far too large and expensive for the relatively minimal improvement they offered over the South Dakotas to be considered a good value. Vanguard and the Lions both suffer from the same problems with relatively obsolete main armaments. For Vanguard, the guns were excellent but the recycled twin mounts meant that the ship was probably fifty feet longer, and therefore significantly heavier, than she needed to be. The Lions' 16" guns fell quite far short of the Americans and their super-heavy shells. The design could certainly challenge the South Dakotas or the Richelieus in terms of efficiency if it was shrunk to carry 3 x 3 15"/42 guns with improved torpedo protection, but the British 16" guns were never world-beaters.

In the final comparison between South Dakota and Richelieu, I don't know if I can make an unbiased decision. The Richelieu's speed and torpedo protection would certainly make it the superior carrier escort, while the South Dakota's better guns and superior fire control would make it better in a battleship fight. Overall, in terms of efficiency and value, the prize would have to go to the South Dakotas.
 
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This analysis leaves us with the Iowas, the South Dakotas, Vanguard, the Lions, and the Richelieus. Although the Iowas were excellent ships, they were far too large and expensive for the relatively minimal improvement they offered over the South Dakotas to be considered a good value. Vanguard and the Lions both suffer from the same problems with relatively obsolete main armaments. For Vanguard, the guns were excellent but the recycled twin mounts meant that the ship was probably fifty feet longer, and therefore significantly heavier, than she needed to be. The Lions' 16" guns fell quite far short of the Americans and their super-heavy shells. The design could certainly challenge the South Dakotas or the Richelieus in terms of efficiency if it was shrunk to carry 3 x 3 15"/42 guns with improved torpedo protection, but the British 16" guns were never world-beaters.

In the final comparison between South Dakota and Richelieu, I don't know if I can make an unbiased decision. The Richelieu's speed and torpedo protection would certainly make it the superior carrier escort, while the South Dakota's better guns and superior fire control would make it better in a battleship fight. Overall, in terms of efficiency and value, the prize would have to go to the South Dakotas.
Has the Alsace been woefully forgotten about?
Regarding Lion's guns, I don't think that's entirely true. The gun fir the Lion's was the 16" Mark II. This fired a much heavier shell than the Mark I, and, may I add, a heavier she'll than the standard, (not super heavy) shell that the US 16" gun could fire.
It's possible a super heavy round could've been developed for the Lions, who knows.
Their armour scheme was very good compared to other ships, although only a slight improvement on the KGVs, as was the Torpedo protection.
If Thry were to go up against a H-39, there's a good chance of them coming out on top.
 
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My understanding is that there is no general advantage of the US superheavy shell - the design reflected expected engagement ranges.

British shells, generally speaking, were optimised for low-obliquity penetration, whereas the US shells were designed for more oblique penetration of armour. This reflects the US expectation of long-range plunging fire against decks, in contrast to the shorter-range engagements and belt hits expected by the British. To achieve better deck penetration, the US shells were very heavy and had somewhat lower muzzle velocities - but this hurt their ability to penetrate thick belt armour.

There's a very interesting thread on this sort of thing on Warships1. I'm not competent to really understand what's going on, but I think the figures shown indicate that the superheavy shell didn't offer any particular advantage for medium-range belt hits.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/various-iz-graphs-t34037-s50.html#p573565
 
I too like the ALSACE-class. It's my understanding that the 3x3 16-inch version was to have been built, not the 3x4 15-inch (I would loved to have seen that monster!).
 

hipper

Banned
We already have CombinedFleet's Battleship Comparison: http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm
I'll work from that and I'm putting it here so nobody thinks I stole anything.

In terms of raw firepower, Yamato's 460mm guns are clearly the leader, but they are certainly not the most efficient guns. Four 16" guns are in the race here: US 16"/45 Mark 6 (North Carolina, South Dakota), US 16"/50 Mark 7 (Iowa), RN 16"/45 Mark II (Lion), and KM 40.6cm/52 SK C/34 (H class). I think we can quite fairly judge these guns simply based on long-range deck penetration, which is governed by shell weight and muzzle velocity. The German gun had a very light AP shell and high muzzle velocity, giving 5.0" of penetration at 30,000 yards. The British gun had a light shell but lower muzzle velocity, giving 5.73" of penetration at 30,000 yards. The higher muzzle velocity of the German shell would also contribute to reduced accuracy. The American guns fired the same super-heavy AP shell, but the lower muzzle velocity of the shorter Mark 6 gave that gun better deck penetration than the Mark 7, 7.62" vs 6.65", due to higher striking angles (closer to vertical). The extra range of the Mark 7 guns likely compensated for the decreased penetration, although long-range radar-guided gunnery was extremely difficult at this time. Therefore, I'll call the competition for 16" gun a tie between the Mark 6 and the Mark 7. Four 15" guns are competing: MN 380mm/45 M1935 (Richelieu), KM 38cm/52 SK C/34 (Bismarck), RM 381mm/50 M1934 (Littorio), and RN 15"/42 Mark I (Vanguard). There was a concept for a 15"/45 for the KGV, but that never saw any real design. Right away, I can eliminate the German gun for having too high muzzle velocity and too little shell weight. I know the gun and the ship it went on was designed to a short-range, limited-visibility knife fight in the North Sea, but that's not the kind of thing you send a battleship out to do by the time WWII came around. The Italian gun has excellent specs, with great range and acceptable deck penetration (compared to the German gun), but its muzzle velocity was high enough to limit round counts below international norms and it was only accurate if the shells were made properly to exacting specifications, which doesn't happen in Italy. The French gun also has a problem in that the muzzle velocity it needs to attain long range negatively impacts deck penetration, but it does not suffer too much compared to the gold standard. The clear winner in the 15" gun range, even after two decades, is the British gun, with excellent penetration, reliability, and accuracy in return for range, although I think there exists a hard limit on practical 15" gun range at about 38,000 yards. There is only one 14" gun I'm going to consider, the RN 14"/45 Mark VII on the KGV. This gun had armor-piercing performance almost comparable to the German 38cm guns. The upgraded US 14"/50 Mark 7, which went on the New Mexicos and Tennessees and was going to go on the North Carolinas before the escalator clause, actually had superior armor-piercing performance than the British 14" gun.

Essentially, these firepower rankings limit our options for best ship to the US battleships, which are clearly ahead, the British battleships, which might be able to make up the ground they've lost, and the Richelieu, which I think was one of the most underrated battleships of WWII. The Iowas and South Dakotas carried essentially the same armor protection and were somewhat more heavily armored than the North Carolinas, so we can eliminate those two from contention. All three British battleships (KGV, Vanguard, and 1938 Lion) share the same armor profile, which focuses more heavily on citadel protection while accepting slightly less armor on the gun turrets and barbettes. I know the KGVs, however, had among the worst torpedo protection of all the Treaty battleships, which contributed to the loss of Prince of Wales to torpedo bombers. Vanguard and the Lions certainly had redesigned and upgraded torpedo protection, though I don't know how much additional protection could be provided on what was essentially the same hull. The Richelieus carried an armor scheme somewhat between the relative extremes of the American and British battleships, but apparently also carried the most efficient torpedo protection ever put to sea. A similar system on Dunkerque protected that ship from 1.5 tons of depth charges exploding alongside at Mers-el-Kebir. The Dunkerques and Richelieus carried very deep torpedo protection, rivaled only by the Yamatos and the Littorio's relatively ineffective systems.

This analysis leaves us with the Iowas, the South Dakotas, Vanguard, the Lions, and the Richelieus. Although the Iowas were excellent ships, they were far too large and expensive for the relatively minimal improvement they offered over the South Dakotas to be considered a good value. Vanguard and the Lions both suffer from the same problems with relatively obsolete main armaments. For Vanguard, the guns were excellent but the recycled twin mounts meant that the ship was probably fifty feet longer, and therefore significantly heavier, than she needed to be. The Lions' 16" guns fell quite far short of the Americans and their super-heavy shells. The design could certainly challenge the South Dakotas or the Richelieus in terms of efficiency if it was shrunk to carry 3 x 3 15"/42 guns with improved torpedo protection, but the British 16" guns were never world-beaters.

In the final comparison between South Dakota and Richelieu, I don't know if I can make an unbiased decision. The Richelieu's speed and torpedo protection would certainly make it the superior carrier escort, while the South Dakota's better guns and superior fire control would make it better in a battleship fight. Overall, in terms of efficiency and value, the prize would have to go to the South Dakotas.


You are wrong about poor torpedo protection on KGV’s the POW was sunk by poor damage controll she was hit on the torpedo shaft. Which when restarted vibrated and opened up the propeller tunnel. The TDS was unbreached by the remaining torpedo hits.

Cheers
 
You are wrong about poor torpedo protection on KGV’s the POW was sunk by poor damage controll she was hit on the torpedo shaft. Which when restarted vibrated and opened up the propeller tunnel. The TDS was unbreached by the remaining torpedo hits.

The report from the team that dove on POW (early 00's IIRC) stated this. There was an entire bulkhead missing from where the shaft literally tore it to pieces. Even if the attack had stopped immediately there was no way to fix that. And many hatches were found to be open, whether this was because they were forgotten or couldn't be closed due to water pressure is unknown.

The torpedo that hit the support for the starboard inner shaft was truly a "golden bb". And this was an aerial 17.7-inch torpedo, not the 24-inch "Long Lance"!
 
The report from the team that dove on POW (early 00's IIRC) stated this. There was an entire bulkhead missing from where the shaft literally tore it to pieces. Even if the attack had stopped immediately there was no way to fix that. And many hatches were found to be open, whether this was because they were forgotten or couldn't be closed due to water pressure is unknown.

The torpedo that hit the support for the starboard inner shaft was truly a "golden bb". And this was an aerial 17.7-inch torpedo, not the 24-inch "Long Lance"!
POW truly was the unlucky ship of the KGV class....
 

Redbeard

Banned
Even the strongest ship is worth nothing before it is put to service and already for this reason I would hesitate to nominate ships that weren't in service at all (like) Lion, H-class) or the ones not in service before the war was won (like Iowa class). And even in a clean tech-spec comparison, ships from different generation will say more about the available tech at the given generation than about the design.

But if trying to compare the balance involved in chosing between time and technology I think the Littorio, Richelieu, KGV and Bismarck deserve honour. The Bismarck class dictated British Building hurry, tied a major factor of the Home Fleet and without the Bismarck Class the Japanese probably wouldn't have been able to overwhelm Singapore. Both Bismarck and Littorio were well over-weight however - that detracts. A lot of people have pointed to all the weaknesses revealed in Bismarck when she was shot to pieces by the RN. Sure she was, but no other ship was exposed to similar punishment so we really don't know how they would have fared under similar circumstances. Another ship hit by many (smaller) shells was the SoDak. She didn't sink (the Germans claim Bismarck was scuttled) but was practicall blinded by cabling being cut outside the citadel and without North Carolina showing up she probably would have been sunk. An armour scheme on SoDak similar to the much critisised on Bismarck probably would have fared better at Guadalcanal.

Richelieu is in many ways very impressive (and handsome), but had serious dispersion problems until her US refit - a ship that can't hit is not worth much, and much the same can be said about the Littorio class, they just dodn't have any US refit.

The KGV certainly was in service at the right time and place, and the Price for being that, her 14" main armament apparently was strong enough. The reliability problems seen in PoW and later DoY are IMHO misunderstood. Any ship as new as PoW could/would have suffered similar problems, and DoY did prolonged firing in very heavy seas - we really don't have similar situations with other ships, and when firing under more normal conditions the misfires on KGVs wasn't different from other ships. Only the Yamato was better protected than the KGVs, but at almost double the tonnage.

The NC class was in service too late to have been of any use to the RN, but in return got a very strong 16" armament and a relative weak protection - and initially serious vibration problems. The time in service wasn't a problem for the USN, but I thing a design with 14" guns and better protection would have been better balanced.

The SoDak deserve special honour for the unique way her machinery was arranged - simply ingenious! For the USN she was with when the going still was tough, but for most others it would have been way too late.

All in all? KGV!
 
If the KGV class was built to what the admiralty wanted it would be a different story. I think 9x15 in triple turrets and 30 knots but don't quote me on it .
 
If the KGV class was built to what the admiralty wanted it would be a different story. I think 9x15 in triple turrets and 30 knots but don't quote me on it .

Hell even cheating on the tonnage a bit, and going for the triple quad 14s would have been pretty fearsome. And possibly done quicker and with less reliability issues, since it was the twin turrets that caused much of the delays and breakdowns.
 
Hell even cheating on the tonnage a bit, and going for the triple quad 14s would have been pretty fearsome. And possibly done quicker and with less reliability issues, since it was the twin turrets that caused much of the delays and breakdowns.

The quad turrets was the problem not the twin turrets
 
And many hatches were found to be open, whether this was because they were forgotten or couldn't be closed due to water pressure is unknown.

When the call to abandon ship comes, human nature probably means closing a watertight hatch is the last thing on your mind.
 
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