Apollinis et Dianae: A Story of Power, Magnificence and Glory

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Valena

Valena

Speaking of education, I'm now thinking...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Amos_Comenius#Life_and_work
It might be too late to invite him to Harvard, but he had quite a following in England. Maybe, speakin' of schools for general population, his ideas can be used.
Also - education for girls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathsua_Makin
Maybe a precursor to French St.Louis Institute for girls may be started using this lady's ideas? She was known in Royal household, and with a ton of princesses to care for she can find employment there again.
 
Valena

Valena

I mean not actual people, but ideas in case of Comenios.
As for Makin, she was not mentioned in TTL actually, but as I've said with ton of princesses and bookish ones like Katherine-Henriette at that she can be brought back from obscurity circa 1670. And then, ideas of hers can be used even if she does not live to see them implemented.
 

JedidiahStott

I have limited the educational aspect to boys, not for any sexist reason, but simply because I think that, for that time and age, schooling of working class girls would be a bridge too far. Get schools established, and the idea will spread.
 

JedidiahStott

Valena said:
I mean not actual people, but ideas in case of Comenios.
As for Makin, she was not mentioned in TTL actually, but as I've said with ton of princesses and bookish ones like Katherine-Henriette at that she can be brought back from obscurity circa 1670. And then, ideas of hers can be used even if she does not live to see them implemented.
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It would be good to have a senior royal woman interested in the "social" stuff. Charles was smart , kindly and well meaning, but lazy. He needs someone to push and poke him into action. A woman is more likely to see the benefits of a kinder and juster society, if only because they (women) were more likely than men to suffer from its injustices.

But I do not know enough of the Stuart era women's world to know who might be a suitable candidate. Catherine of Braganza was kindly, and would, I am sure, have supported such things, but she was not assertive.
 

JedidiahStott

Valena said:
I just propose what French did only a decade later in OTL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_royale_de_Saint-Louis
And show that the ideas and possible Royal patronage for such a thing were already there.
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Interesting. Perhaps I have underestimated the appetite for female education. For boys, read children.

I think, though, that it is important to go for quantity, not quality. Or , rather, for breadth rather than depth. A significant percentage of the population able to read write and cipher is better than a small percentage learned in Latin and Greek.
 
Valena

Valena

I envision "English Saint-Louis Institute" as:
1. Makin gets re-employed as a tutor to Princess Katherine in 1671 (Charles might note his daughter taking interest in learning and might remember his late sis' governess, Makin applied for teaching post in household of Princess Anne of York OTL, was denied that, here she can be employed)
2. Her ideas start to influence the Governess of Royal Children (AFAIR the sister to Buckingham TTL)
3. The idea to establish school for girls from empoverished noble family manifests from this conversation, and while the idea might lose traction, Katherine-Henriette might ask her father to do something in her direction as her tutor will doubtless influence the young princess (or her governess, with Kat we won't beat French on it - merely establish the institution roughly at the same time as them)
 

Emperor Constantine

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JedidiahStott said:
It would be good to have a senior royal woman interested in the "social" stuff. Charles was smart , kindly and well meaning, but lazy. He needs someone to push and poke him into action. A woman is more likely to see the benefits of a kinder and juster society, if only because they (women) were more likely than men to suffer from its injustices.

But I do not know enough of the Stuart era women's world to know who might be a suitable candidate. Catherine of Braganza was kindly, and would, I am sure, have supported such things, but she was not assertive.
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Well in my TL Catherine is more assertive. In my opinion she acted demur OTLdbecause of a constant fear of being divorced. Here, with five children under her belt, that fear vanished. Plus, Queen Mother Henrietta Maria is still around and I think she would help give Catherine a backbone (something the Queen Mother never lacked). But what about Margaret Cavendish Duchess of Newcastle? She was also dead but OTL but not by much, so if she didn't die of a major disease I'm more then happy to have her live a bit longer. Hell I might have her live longer either way, she was incredibly interesting. I mean she was a poet, philosopher, scientist, playwright and essayist, pretty much a female jack of all trades. So having her being interested in female education or public education in general, isn't that far of a stretch. For all I know she might have been interested in it OTL.
 
Valena

Valena

Also, what about Morland-Leibniz idea pool to automate accounting? Leibniz was a "court inventor" of Hannover ducal family, and his movement in England (and cooperation with Morland) is pretty easy to arrange with England-Hannover Royal marriage.
Them cooperating might improve the designs of arithmetic machines of both.
 
Valena

Valena

JedidiahStott said:
Interesting. Perhaps I have underestimated the appetite for female education. For boys, read children.

I think, though, that it is important to go for quantity, not quality. Or , rather, for breadth rather than depth. A significant percentage of the population able to read write and cipher is better than a small percentage learned in Latin and Greek.
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For boys, quantity matters, for girls quantity will be too anachronistic but demand for quality was there already and can be established without getting way ahead of ourselves. And I think that England can develop such an idea on its own without importing it from France. Think "Jane Austin era governess" social phenomenon but a century or half earlier:)
As for boys, what you said with Dissenter schools trying to implement Comenius ideas (the largest following for them in England being from this population).
 

JedidiahStott

The problem with arithmetic engines , as Mr Babbage discovered, is that they demand an extremely exacting degree of engineering precision. Otherwise small errors accumulate until the results become unreliable.

Such a degree of precision is well beyond what we can manage. A chronometer would be a more practical challenge, to determine longitude.

Of course, if we want a simple reliable arithmetic engine, we may steal one from the Chinese through the EIC. The abacus.
 
Valena

Valena

China is too far away, LOL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus#Russian
Known since 16th century and is 100% used by Russian merchants in Archangelsk. It was used in small shops in Soviet Union until the very invention of electrical calculator, basically, and the design was unchanged from 18th century!

It was just such an obvious idea to me that I did not brought it up (I had no idea that OTL such a simple thing - I remember it since my childhood - my Grandfather worked as accountant in village shop and used one - was unknown to Western Europe till Napoleonic Wars).
 
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Valena

Valena

Offtopic: And that's why I love this board - due to different cultural background I had no idea that something like abacus was unknown to Stuart Britain and allowed myself to be dragged by my boyfriend into arithmetical engine research, while there was a simple piece of tech, which in OTL competed with mechanical arithmetical engines (successfully!) well into 20th century, lying right under our nose.
The thing is dirt cheap and can be made pretty small, not to mention it is easy to operate (and to train for operation).
 

Emperor Constantine

JedidiahStott said:
The problem with arithmetic engines , as Mr Babbage discovered, is that they demand an extremely exacting degree of engineering precision. Otherwise small errors accumulate until the results become unreliable.

Such a degree of precision is well beyond what we can manage. A chronometer would be a more practical challenge, to determine longitude.

Of course, if we want a simple reliable arithmetic engine, we may steal one from the Chinese through the EIC. The abacus.
Click to expand...


OK I still have to fully read threw your enclosure post but the parts I did read makes sense and should be workable. At this point I've began plans to construct the TTL Kennet and Avon canal and plans to repair and expand the road network in England. I'm thinking of moving up the Turnpike trusts to help pay for the roads (they were first proposed in 1660 so its not ASB to have them happen earlier). I'm wondering if they would be created by an Act of Parliament or by the Royal Bank? And two, what if any canals would be made in Northern England at this time?
 

JedidiahStott

Turnpike trusts, just have them as another corporation. Just like modern times, they'd be a company. They're purely commercial, and the highways are the King's highways. Going through Parliament makes things complicated expensive and argumentative. Only need for Parliament would be if they wanted to forcibly demand right of way over someone's land and weren't willing to pay the asking price.

I think that highway trusts are the only way to fund meaningful road work. But, the King can give them a helping hand. By the common law, every vill must repair the roads in its neighborhood (including bridges - that part goes back to King Alfred) . Men must attend with their carts , horses, villeins, oxen to work on the roads. For as long as it takes. Unpaid ! And the law courts frequently, and strictly enforced this obligation. And the King has a preemptive right to take stone and gravel for the roads. He *might* say "Well, you can have a choice here: either all of you are going to be spending a lot of time repairing these roads, which have fallen greatly into disrepair during the troubled times. Or, you can voluntarily offer a payment to be excused (which I can do by Royal prerogative) . The payment you make to be excused will be paid to the Royal Highways Company to repair the road for you. Good deal, isn't it". This sort of thing did happen in the Middle Ages .

But, bear in mind that highways won't be as profitable where there are canals. Canals take passengers, too.

Here is a good map of the northern canals. I'd suggest, determine first what coal fields you are going to exploit (because coal is the mainstay cargo), then look at the map and see which canals serve that area. May adjust it just a wee bit, because another important use f canals (but one the King won't talk about so much) , is they make it a LOT faster to get troops into an area if there is trouble. Ship to the nearest port, and canal boat to the trouble spot. Far faster than marching and the troops arrive untired.
 

Emperor Constantine

JedidiahStott said:
Turnpike trusts, just have them as another corporation. Just like modern times, they'd be a company. They're purely commercial, and the highways are the King's highways. Going through Parliament makes things complicated expensive and argumentative. Only need for Parliament would be if they wanted to forcibly demand right of way over someone's land and weren't willing to pay the asking price.

I think that highway trusts are the only way to fund meaningful road work. But, the King can give them a helping hand. By the common law, every vill must repair the roads in its neighborhood (including bridges - that part goes back to King Alfred) . Men must attend with their carts , horses, villeins, oxen to work on the roads. For as long as it takes. Unpaid ! And the law courts frequently, and strictly enforced this obligation. And the King has a preemptive right to take stone and gravel for the roads. He *might* say "Well, you can have a choice here: either all of you are going to be spending a lot of time repairing these roads, which have fallen greatly into disrepair during the troubled times. Or, you can voluntarily offer a payment to be excused (which I can do by Royal prerogative) . The payment you make to be excused will be paid to the Royal Highways Company to repair the road for you. Good deal, isn't it". This sort of thing did happen in the Middle Ages .

But, bear in mind that highways won't be as profitable where there are canals. Canals take passengers, too.

Here is a good map of the northern canals. I'd suggest, determine first what coal fields you are going to exploit (because coal is the mainstay cargo), then look at the map and see which canals serve that area. May adjust it just a wee bit, because another important use f canals (but one the King won't talk about so much) , is they make it a LOT faster to get troops into an area if there is trouble. Ship to the nearest port, and canal boat to the trouble spot. Far faster than marching and the troops arrive untired.
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OK so the Royal Bank gives the initial funding to the new Royal highways company, which sets up turnpike trusts to raise tolls to pay for the road upkeep.

As to Canals, I think its more likely for the Crown and Bank to wait to invest in any other canals until the London-Bristol canal is making profits or at least closer to complexion. I can't see them wanting to invest in to many canals if the first one ends up being a financial disaster. And which coal mines are most likely to be expanded in the 1680s? And the troops part makes sense as well. Not something you want to talk about publicly. I was thinking of expanding Liverpool earlier to act as a port for trade with the colonies, likely or no? I remember reading that Liverpool and Glasgow became important to trade after the Navigation acts so with official backing from the Crown, would Liverpool be likely to expand trade wise ( I think Glasgow will have to wait until the act of Union to be a target for investment, as Charles II really disliked the Scots and I doubt those feelings improved with the TTL Scottish civil war).
 

JedidiahStott

If you are looking at Liverpool as a port (though, bear in mind upon what its historical early prosperity was based), then starting with the Liverpool-Leeds canal would make sense, linking Liverpool and the (not yet existing but will be) Lancashire manufacturing towns with the Lancashire coal field . This is where the Duke of Bridgwater built his canals, so it seems a good bet.

His Majesty will pray to bear in mind that canals are a long term investment. They don't show a profit for many years. On the other hand, they last almost for ever. This is nation-building, not a quick buck. Also, the economic drive of the northern canals is different to the London-Bristol. The latter, its big advantage was time and safety. The alternative route for passengers or goods between London and Bristol was by ship around Land's End . It could take weeks if the winds were adverse, and a high risk (especially in time of war). The canal, a few days in complete safety. But, the cargoes were not heavy. Parcel goods, livestock and passengers. Some grain, things like bricks.

The northern canals , the driver was cost. The loads were bulk cargoes, coal, iron ore. Time was not such an issue but cost was. Road transportation was astronomically expensive for heavy cargo. Later, raw cotton in and piece goods out, but that will not be for another 50 years.

This is something new for England, civil engineering on this scale has not been attempted since early Plantagenet times. The first canals will be slow to build (years, not months)
 

Emperor Constantine

JedidiahStott said:
If you are looking at Liverpool as a port (though, bear in mind upon what its historical early prosperity was based), then starting with the Liverpool-Leeds canal would make sense, linking Liverpool and the (not yet existing but will be) Lancashire manufacturing towns with the Lancashire coal field . This is where the Duke of Bridgwater built his canals, so it seems a good bet.

His Majesty will pray to bear in mind that canals are a long term investment. They don't show a profit for many years. On the other hand, they last almost for ever. This is nation-building, not a quick buck. Also, the economic drive of the northern canals is different to the London-Bristol. The latter, its big advantage was time and safety. The alternative route for passengers or goods between London and Bristol was by ship around Land's End . It could take weeks if the winds were adverse, and a high risk (especially in time of war). The canal, a few days in complete safety. But, the cargoes were not heavy. Parcel goods, livestock and passengers. Some grain, things like bricks.

The northern canals , the driver was cost. The loads were bulk cargoes, coal, iron ore. Time was not such an issue but cost was. Road transportation was astronomically expensive for heavy cargo. Later, raw cotton in and piece goods out, but that will not be for another 50 years.

This is something new for England, civil engineering on this scale has not been attempted since early Plantagenet times. The first canals will be slow to build (years, not months)
Click to expand...

OK so maybe investing in both, with the Northern canals sharing investors with major landholders in the North. And considering how long the Canal Royale du Languedoc took to build it'll be pretty obvious it'll take years to complete and become profitable.
 

JedidiahStott

It will probably be easier to find investors for the Northern canal. The coal fields (and clay fields) had been exploited since Roman times. The land owners knew there was mineral wealth there, but it was too far from the sea to be economically workable (there's a reason why coal was always called seacoal in those days , away from the direct mine areas). Given the idea of cheap transport , they'll see the advantage to them straight away. And probably fewer local interests that might be detrimentally affected.

Bristol to London, the existing sea route works . Just slow and expensive. But the southern canal will make its profit from changing trading patterns. More local interests that will object.

In the southern case it will be necessary to just push on through . Build it ,a and they will come sort of thing. In the northern case, it can be done gradually and driven by demand. Build a section connection a coal field to a few towns. See the mining make profits. Other land owners with coal will see their neighbors getting rich on mining profits and say they want their canal. And the towns without one will say the same.
 
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