Ancient Greek Scientific revolution and massive engineered projects kick off

[Albert.Nik]

Its Mid Antiquity. Great people like Alexander,Aristotle,Plato,Socrates,Democritus of Abdera,Thales of Miletus,etc are coming and putting across rational and advanced theories of Science and Philosophy unprecedented for that time. Greek Homelands then covered the best parts of the World in terms of climate,exposure,trade and sustenance. Greece of today and Western Anatolia are in the Core Greek lands and Alexandria,Parts of Levant,Southern France,Southern Italy are colonized by Greeks. So in this ATL, due to the effect of all these developments,a Scientific revolution unfolds on a grand scale. Slaves are still held and are planned to be freed in a planned and humane manner. The Scientific practices enriches Greece like anything and eventually,Carthage and Pheonicians are absorbed into Greece and eventually Celts,Romans,Etruscans,Basque,Anatolians,etc join this advanced civilization. So Italy,Southern France,Spain,North Africa,Levant,Anatolia,Balkans fall under this strong and advanced Greek Empire. Electricity is discovered not late after. Immigrants are coming from the Northern Europe into the Empire but Greeks haven't expanded their Empire yet. Eventually,a good and great king like Alexander comes along and heads East and conquers Persia and India. In India,instead of being referred to as impure as in OTL,they are referred to as messengers of Gods or Gods themselves as their advanced nature comes off to others as some kind of Godly beings. Being good natured as in OTL,Alexander of this timeline and the Greeks treat all the conquered people with respect living up to the natives notion that these are some Godly beings. Initially,the Greeks don't interfere with the conquered peoples and instead let them to live by themselves but help them with their basic needs if required. The ruling Empire instead sets up settlements using advanced techniques in emptier regions. So whole of Europe,Most of Asia except China,large parts of North Africa fall under this scientifically advanced empire as they head towards other parts of the World where again,they are received in the same way. Many in the conquered lands join the advanced Empire and the societies and futuristic era dawns with newer technologies like Bio-Enhancers for longer lifespans and more customized living,Intelliwears made of Advanced materials that help people to get more and more capabilities and simutaneously,Space exploration begins. Mankind is no longer the same species it first evolved as but far more advanced and by 400-500CE,they become multiple planetary species. What happens after? They advance more and more and the limits don't exist for this Semi divine entity which is en route to becoming divine!

 

[Arkenfolm]

Its Mid Antiquity. Great people like Alexander,Aristotle,Plato,Socrates,Democritus of Abdera,Thales of Miletus,etc are coming and putting across rational and advanced theories of Science and Philosophy unprecedented for that time. Greek Homelands then covered the best parts of the World in terms of climate,exposure,trade and sustenance. Greece of today and Western Anatolia are in the Core Greek lands and Alexandria,Parts of Levant,Southern France,Southern Italy are colonized by Greeks. So in this ATL, due to the effect of all these developments,a Scientific revolution unfolds on a grand scale.

So...OTL basically?

Slaves are still held and are planned to be freed in a planned and humane manner.

A completely anachronistic ideology of that time. Abolitionism was essentially unheard of in Antiquity and advocating it would probably mean you drink the hemlock like Socrates.

The Scientific practices enriches Greece like anything and eventually,Carthage and Pheonicians are absorbed into Greece and eventually Celts,Romans,Etruscans,Basque,Anatolians,etc join this advanced civilization. So Italy,Southern France,Spain,North Africa,Levant,Anatolia,Balkans fall under this strong and advanced Greek Empire.

Why conquer lands which are mostly poor and tribal instead of going for Mesopotamia, Persia, and India like Alexander did? And any innovation in the Greek heartlands will spread to Carthage, the Levant, and even the Latin peoples before long. So why do they want to join in? Carthage was a huge rival to the Greeks after all.

Electricity is discovered not late after. Immigrants are coming from the Northern Europe into the Empire but Greeks haven't expanded their Empire yet.

The same immigrants like the Cimbri the Romans fought wars against? Or rather not, since having an industrial revolution in Antiquity means Northern Europe is getting innovations like the heavy plow and will get a population increase and statebuilding will occur, creating large states in Northern Europe like OTL.

Also, electricity needs industrialization. The Mediterranean is somewhat impoverished in coal compared to Northern Europe.

Eventually,a good and great king like Alexander comes along and heads East and conquers Persia and India. In India,instead of being referred to as impure as in OTL,they are referred to as messengers of Gods or Gods themselves as their advanced nature comes off to others as some kind of Godly beings.

Until their army hits the Zagros and is ground down by logistics and constant raids from the Persians, who will have gunpowder and nearly equivalent tech. Granted if it's anything like the Qajar-era Persians in the mid-19th, then they'd be using 18th century tech and doctrine against 19th century tech and doctrine.

Same with India. They'd need to be having some equivalent of the situation in the mid-late 18th to even have a chance of conquering them, otherwise they would just as easily modernize (and not be in an intermediate state like Persia might be). A state in Bengal or Kerala would have the easiest time since they have ample amounts of hydropower to start with and can later expand into coal. AND you'd need to go by sea too, since India is a huge place. These Indians wouldn't think they were gods in the slightest, just an invading army.

Being good natured as in OTL,Alexander of this timeline and the Greeks treat all the conquered people with respect living up to the natives notion that these are some Godly beings. Initially,the Greeks don't interfere with the conquered peoples and instead let them to live by themselves but help them with their basic needs if required.

If you're conquering the whole world, you don't do it out of the goodness of your heart. Or you do, but it's called "white man's burden" and you make the natives pay for your goodness through taxes and exploitation.

The ruling Empire instead sets up settlements using advanced techniques in emptier regions. So whole of Europe,Most of Asia except China,large parts of North Africa fall under this scientifically advanced empire as they head towards other parts of the World where again,they are received in the same way.

So...colonialism? And once again, all that technology will spread (within Eurasia and to much of Africa) long before a single soldier sets foot there thanks to trade. Even some American Indians (the last ones to be conquered) had guns and horses thanks to trade before they saw a single white man.

Many in the conquered lands join the advanced Empire and the societies and futuristic era dawns with newer technologies like Bio-Enhancers for longer lifespans and more customized living,Intelliwears made of Advanced materials that help people to get more and more capabilities and simutaneously,Space exploration begins. Mankind is no longer the same species it first evolved as but far more advanced and by 400-500CE,they become multiple planetary species. What happens after? They advance more and more and the limits don't exist for this Semi divine entity which is en route to becoming divine!

If we assume the era of Greek city states at the start of your PoD is like 1500 AD then that makes sense, but by 1500 AD the world was a lot more advanced than anything in Ancient Greece (no gunpowder!).

Plus this reads like a Sid Meier's Civilization AAR.

 

[Albert.Nik]

So...OTL basically?




A completely anachronistic ideology of that time. Abolitionism was essentially unheard of in Antiquity and advocating it would probably mean you drink the hemlock like Socrates.



Why conquer lands which are mostly poor and tribal instead of going for Mesopotamia, Persia, and India like Alexander did? And any innovation in the Greek heartlands will spread to Carthage, the Levant, and even the Latin peoples before long. So why do they want to join in? Carthage was a huge rival to the Greeks after all.



The same immigrants like the Cimbri the Romans fought wars against? Or rather not, since having an industrial revolution in Antiquity means Northern Europe is getting innovations like the heavy plow and will get a population increase and statebuilding will occur, creating large states in Northern Europe like OTL.

Also, electricity needs industrialization. The Mediterranean is somewhat impoverished in coal compared to Northern Europe.



Until their army hits the Zagros and is ground down by logistics and constant raids from the Persians, who will have gunpowder and nearly equivalent tech. Granted if it's anything like the Qajar-era Persians in the mid-19th, then they'd be using 18th century tech and doctrine against 19th century tech and doctrine.

Same with India. They'd need to be having some equivalent of the situation in the mid-late 18th to even have a chance of conquering them, otherwise they would just as easily modernize (and not be in an intermediate state like Persia might be). A state in Bengal or Kerala would have the easiest time since they have ample amounts of hydropower to start with and can later expand into coal. AND you'd need to go by sea too, since India is a huge place. These Indians wouldn't think they were gods in the slightest, just an invading army.



If you're conquering the whole world, you don't do it out of the goodness of your heart. Or you do, but it's called "white man's burden" and you make the natives pay for your goodness through taxes and exploitation.



So...colonialism? And once again, all that technology will spread (within Eurasia and to much of Africa) long before a single soldier sets foot there thanks to trade. Even some American Indians (the last ones to be conquered) had guns and horses thanks to trade before they saw a single white man.



If we assume the era of Greek city states at the start of your PoD is like 1500 AD then that makes sense, but by 1500 AD the world was a lot more advanced than anything in Ancient Greece (no gunpowder!).

Plus this reads like a Sid Meier's Civilization AAR.

Industrialization happens in this ATL with renewables on a large scale first implemented in large tracts of semi Terraformed lands as still most lands were mostly empty at that time and national boundaries unheard of. After gaining a foothold,more advanced renewables like Solar thermal and Wind comes along and with a renewable manufacturing industry in place(note that Slaves are still there in this TL but are treated better). First, Agriculture,sanitation and water gets way way better and population swells to a good level. Anyone sharing the technology with non Greeks until they agree to join the Empire and immigrate is forbidden and immigration involves specific education which would make them pro Greek. That is the Hellenization. Non Hellenized people and those who betray Greece aren't allowed to get the knowledge of these technologies. Of course,those who betray are punished like in those days. Surveillance is in place and those with knowledge of these will be monitored during interaction with non Hellenized people or those not loyal to Greece's mission and will be permitted to leave the boundaries of the cities only with two escorts who would be loyal to Greece.
So renewable powered engineering and surveillance and laws pertaining to betrayal are strictly enforced(it won't be taboo in that era) and hence,a Good kings like Alexander could achieve this progress.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Industrialization happens in this ATL with renewables on a large scale first implemented in large tracts of semi Terraformed lands as still most lands were mostly empty at that time and national boundaries unheard of.

What renewables? There aren't many rivers good for hydroelectric power in Greece (Anatolia is a different matter) and without that you can't have industrialization. Windmills and water mills will only get you so far. Stirling engine also requires a lot of engineering/scientific knowledge.

After gaining a foothold,more advanced renewables like Solar thermal and Wind comes along and with a renewable manufacturing industry in place(note that Slaves are still there in this TL but are treated better).

Also requires a lot of scientific knowledge which wouldn't be immediately apparent, as well as advanced metallurgy. And with slavery in place there's a lot less demand for new manufacturing tech in this, since the wealthy can just get more slaves. Unless a plague kills your slaves of course.

First, Agriculture,sanitation and water gets way way better and population swells to a good level. Anyone sharing the technology with non Greeks until they agree to join the Empire and immigrate is forbidden and immigration involves specific education which would make them pro Greek.

Which worked so well for the Chinese and silk. Considering Greece wasn't even united at this point, why wouldn't a city state trade with non-Greeks for this tech? Don't they want gold? Even if it were united, the policy lasts all of five minutes until some peasants leave to a barbarian land and farm there, someone bribes a border guard, etc. A premodern police state simply doesn't work, you can't have a North Korea equivalent.

That is the Hellenization. Non Hellenized people and those who betray Greece aren't allowed to get the knowledge of these technologies. Of course,those who betray are punished like in those days. Surveillance is in place and those with knowledge of these will be monitored during interaction with non Hellenized people or those not loyal to Greece's mission and will be permitted to leave the boundaries of the cities only with two escorts who would be loyal to Greece.
So renewable powered engineering and surveillance and laws pertaining to betrayal are strictly enforced(it won't be taboo in that era) and hence,a Good kings like Alexander could achieve this progress.

How? China couldn't prevent their silk being smuggled out of the country, and that's a lot harder than just smuggling some blueprints and telling a smith to reproduce it. Same thing with philosophy, just move some scrolls and other smart people would love to read it, debate it, and build on it.

How can these guards check every single ship, oxcart, etc that leaves their country, and more importantly, actually do their job and not just get bribed? Ever hear about the obscene amounts of corruption in North Korea? Especially puzzling too given you mentioned that this is an era before national boundaries, which is true enough, but you need national boundaries of some sort to establish a surveillance state. You can close off all trade, but inevitably people and ideas will escape, and the country will be so poor they can't afford to invest in any ideas or technology to begin with.

 

[Albert.Nik]

What renewables? There aren't many rivers good for hydroelectric power in Greece (Anatolia is a different matter) and without that you can't have industrialization. Windmills and water mills will only get you so far. Stirling engine also requires a lot of engineering/scientific knowledge.



Also requires a lot of scientific knowledge which wouldn't be immediately apparent, as well as advanced metallurgy. And with slavery in place there's a lot less demand for new manufacturing tech in this, since the wealthy can just get more slaves. Unless a plague kills your slaves of course.



Which worked so well for the Chinese and silk. Considering Greece wasn't even united at this point, why wouldn't a city state trade with non-Greeks for this tech? Don't they want gold? Even if it were united, the policy lasts all of five minutes until some peasants leave to a barbarian land and farm there, someone bribes a border guard, etc. A premodern police state simply doesn't work, you can't have a North Korea equivalent.



How? China couldn't prevent their silk being smuggled out of the country, and that's a lot harder than just smuggling some blueprints and telling a smith to reproduce it. Same thing with philosophy, just move some scrolls and other smart people would love to read it, debate it, and build on it.

How can these guards check every single ship, oxcart, etc that leaves their country, and more importantly, actually do their job and not just get bribed? Ever hear about the obscene amounts of corruption in North Korea? Especially puzzling too given you mentioned that this is an era before national boundaries, which is true enough, but you need national boundaries of some sort to establish a surveillance state. You can close off all trade, but inevitably people and ideas will escape, and the country will be so poor they can't afford to invest in any ideas or technology to begin with.

Not everybody is subjected to such rule. Chief engineers,inventors,builders,scientists are first told to keep the plans and knowledge away from anybody Un Hellenized. Those who want to get Hellenized would go through a specialized process of education and qualifications. Peasants of that age who would know little to leak out arent regulated and so are merchants who trade. So trade isnt stopped. Only knowledge about construction,working,etc of the sophisticated machinery and technology is. Not for long. Once the Empire feels that it doesn't have anymore threats,free exchange is restored.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Not everybody is subjected to such rule. Chief engineers,inventors,builders,scientists are first told to keep the plans and knowledge away from anybody Un Hellenized. Those who want to get Hellenized would go through a specialized process of education and qualifications. Peasants of that age who would know little to leak out arent regulated and so are merchants who trade. So trade isnt stopped. Only knowledge about construction,working,etc of the sophisticated machinery and technology is. Not for long. Once the Empire feels that it doesn't have anymore threats,free exchange is restored.

And what if they say no to the rules? Or just pay the guards some money to keep quiet? If 20/21st century totalitarian states can't stop their scientists and engineers from defecting despite all the surveillance and other means of control, no way in hell could a premodern state.

And your invention can't become widespread in society if merchants can't buy or sell it. So there you go, your society leaks like a sieve.

 

[Hegemon]

Its Mid Antiquity. Great people like Alexander,Aristotle,Plato,Socrates,Democritus of Abdera,Thales of Miletus,etc are coming and putting across rational and advanced theories of Science and Philosophy unprecedented for that time. Greek Homelands then covered the best parts of the World in terms of climate,exposure,trade and sustenance. Greece of today and Western Anatolia are in the Core Greek lands and Alexandria,Parts of Levant,Southern France,Southern Italy are colonized by Greeks. So in this ATL, due to the effect of all these developments,a Scientific revolution unfolds on a grand scale. Slaves are still held and are planned to be freed in a planned and humane manner. The Scientific practices enriches Greece like anything and eventually,Carthage and Pheonicians are absorbed into Greece and eventually Celts,Romans,Etruscans,Basque,Anatolians,etc join this advanced civilization. So Italy,Southern France,Spain,North Africa,Levant,Anatolia,Balkans fall under this strong and advanced Greek Empire. Electricity is discovered not late after. Immigrants are coming from the Northern Europe into the Empire but Greeks haven't expanded their Empire yet. Eventually,a good and great king like Alexander comes along and heads East and conquers Persia and India. In India,instead of being referred to as impure as in OTL,they are referred to as messengers of Gods or Gods themselves as their advanced nature comes off to others as some kind of Godly beings. Being good natured as in OTL,Alexander of this timeline and the Greeks treat all the conquered people with respect living up to the natives notion that these are some Godly beings. Initially,the Greeks don't interfere with the conquered peoples and instead let them to live by themselves but help them with their basic needs if required. The ruling Empire instead sets up settlements using advanced techniques in emptier regions. So whole of Europe,Most of Asia except China,large parts of North Africa fall under this scientifically advanced empire as they head towards other parts of the World where again,they are received in the same way. Many in the conquered lands join the advanced Empire and the societies and futuristic era dawns with newer technologies like Bio-Enhancers for longer lifespans and more customized living,Intelliwears made of Advanced materials that help people to get more and more capabilities and simutaneously,Space exploration begins. Mankind is no longer the same species it first evolved as but far more advanced and by 400-500CE,they become multiple planetary species. What happens after? They advance more and more and the limits don't exist for this Semi divine entity which is en route to becoming divine!

Three letters.

A
S
B

Period.